Dear God, 
Newport
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http://theuglytruth.wordpress.com/2008/11/17/dear-god/
Don’t get me wrong–it’s not that I am anti-religion. Not at all. I think religion can be–CAN BE–one of the greatest things in the world, provided it’s done right. More specifically I think Jesus was THE greatest guy who ever walked Your green earth and as much as possible I try to live my life in such a way that I imagine He would find agreeable or–dare I hope–laudable.
- Re: Dear God, Megabite
17 y
4,598
MoreThis is a reply to # 1,301,353Good article and great reading for many "holier than thou" curezoners! :)
-
Iraq & Afghanistan?! Try The America... UserX
17 y
4,872
This is a reply to # 1,301,353
http://www.amnestyusa.org/amnestynow/soulwound.html
http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-6637396204037343133
And the genocide is STILL going on!!!
NOT FOR PINE RIDGE RESERVATION THOUGH!!!
http://www.linkcenterfoundation.org/
http://riverdaughter.wordpress.com/2008/11/13/urgent-pine-ridge-needs-help/
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/namapahh_radio/2008/11/15/blizzard-relief-needed...
From an email received today...
RE: Twelfth Day of Snow Emergency
Many hundreds of American Indians still snowbound and without electrical power or water on Pine Ridge Indian Reservation.
Sofia Romero, age 98, snowed in, no power, no water, food situation unknown.
Emme Zimiga, age 96, snowed in, no power, no water, food situation unknown.
Amanda Milk, age 80's, no legs, dialysis patient, snowed in, presumed dead.
Hisle SD - 38 households (average of 17 persons per household on Reservation) still snowed in with out power or water.
Lost Dog Community - 5 families snowed in, no power, no water, food situation unknown.
Lacreek Electric Association reports that over 1,000 power distribution poles broken by the storm have been replaced, but dozens more are still down, while repair efforts have been diverted to the some of the main distribution lines still partially inoperative.
Red Cross Effort Vehemently Incompetent - As documented by Marion White Mouse (605-462-6242), the American Red Cross sent a contingency of one volunteer, Monica Turkleson who departed the Reservation prematurely on Saturday, November 15th. Ms. Turkleson's "aide" consisted of nothing and her behavior was reported as impatient, rude and racist.
Genocidal Results of the Failed American Indian Policies of the United States Government:
MORTALITY - Lakotah men have a life expectancy of less than 44 years, lowest of any country in the World (excluding AIDS) including Haiti.
Lakotah death rate is the highest in the United States.
The Lakotah infant mortality rate is 300% more than the U.S. Average.
Teenage suicide rate is 150% higher than the U.S national average for this group.
POVERTY:
Median income is approximately $2,600 to $3,500 per year.
97% of our Lakotah people live below the poverty line.
Many families cannot afford heating oil, wood or propane and many residents use ovens to heat their homes.
UNEMPLOYMENT:
Unemployment rates on our reservations is 85% or higher.
Government funding for job creation is lost through cronyism and corruption.
HOUSING:
Elderly die each winter from hypothermia (freezing).
1/3 of the homes lack basic clean water and sewage while 40% lack electricity.
60% of Reservation families have no telephone.
60% of housing is infected with potentially fatal black molds.
There is an estimated average of 17 people living in each family home (may only have two to three rooms). Some homes, built for 6 to 8 people, have up to 30 people living in them.
DRUGS AND ALCOHOL:
More than half the Reservation’s adults battle addiction and disease.
Alcoholism affects 8 in 10 families.
Two known meth-amphetamine labs allowed to continue operation. Why?
DISEASE:
The Tuberculosis rate on Lakotah reservations is approx. 800% higher than the U.S national average.
Cervical cancer is 500% higher than the U.S national average.
The rate of diabetes is 800% higher than the U.S national average.
Federal Commodity Food Program provides high Sugar foods that kill Native people through diabetes and heart disease.
INCARCERATION:
Indian children incarceration rate 40% higher than whites.
In South Dakota, 21 percent of state prisoners were Native, yet they only make up 9% of the population.
Indians have the second largest state prison incarceration rate in the nation.
Most Indians live on federal reservations. Less than 2% of Indians live where the state has jurisdiction!
THREATENED CULTURE:
Only 14% of the Lakotah population can speak the Lakotah language.
The language is not being shared inter-generationally. Today, the average age of a fluent Lakotah speaker is 65 years.
Our Lakotah language is an Endangered Language, on the verge of extinction.
From 1972!!!...
http://www.aimovement.org/archives/page45.html
http://www.aimovement.org/archives/index.html
And they wondered why...
Chronology of Oppression At Pine Ridge
1973 - 1976
http://www.geocities.com/crazyoglala/...
Hear Annie Mae's voice and listen to her daughter Deborah, now a police officer, talk about wanting to meet her mother's killers.
http://www.nfb.ca/webextension/anniem...
Learn how Annie Mae became involved in the American Indian Movement and how it fuelled her passion for justice.
http://www.nfb.ca/webextension/anniem...
"A Canadian woman was murdered on American soil and nothing was done about it." - Denise Maloney Pictou, daughter of Annie Mae Aquash
http://www.nfb.ca/webextension/anniem...
Leonard Peltier's official website
with tons of information
http://www.freepeltier.org/
Unfinished business in Indian country
2004
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3...
CANKPE OPI
http://www.dickshovel.com/WKmasscre.html
articles from NATIVE-L mentioning Wounded Knee
http://www.nativenet.uthscsa.edu/arch...
Leonard's Reaction to Kamook and the Arlo Looking Cloud Trial
Tue, 10 Feb 2004
From: info@leonardpeltier.org
http://members.shaw.ca/johngraham/leo...
The United States of America vs. Fritz Arlo Looking Cloud
Court Trial Transcripts
February 2004
Rapid City, South Dakota
http://www.grahamdefense.org/200402cl...
Arlo Looking Cloud was tried and convicted in South Dakota
http://members.shaw.ca/johngraham/loo...
QUICK FACTS:
http://members.shaw.ca/johngraham/tex...
"I fear that John Boy will not receive a fair trial in the US anymore than I did. I must remind you, it is court record that the FBI lied to extradite me back to the US." - Leonard Peltier
http://members.shaw.ca/johngraham/
John Graham on the Looking Cloud trial
http://osdir.com/ml/politics.marxism....
British Columbia Supreme Court Dismisses John Graham's Appeal
August 05 2007
http://www.infoshop.org/inews/article...
John Graham Loses Extradition Appeal [Updated Including Info on How You Can Support John]
http://mostlywater.org/john_graham_lo...
Speak out about John Graham hearing
September 26, 2005
http://www.imakenews.com/spiritlink/e...,0,w
Forum on Graham
http://www.rabble.ca/babble/ultimateb...
Delivering 'Framed' John Graham
http://thetyee.ca/Views/2007/05/16/Jo...
Dennis Banks's New Memoir - And The Murder That Won't Go Away
http://www.jfamr.org/memoir.html
An interview with Denise Pictou-Maloney
on the death of her mother,
Annie Mae Aquash
November 24, 2004
http://jfamr.org/denise_interview.html
Commemorating Anna Mae
http://www.grahamdefense.org/200411in...
Bury her heart at Wounded Knee
CBC News Online | February 21, 2005
http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/pic...
Murder of Anna Mae Aquash Unsolved After 23 Years
http://www.firstnationsdrum.com/histo...
A Biography of Anna Mae
Introduction
http://www.dickshovel.com/bio.html
The Investigator
by Cindy Hamilton, 1996
http://www.dickshovel.com/invest.html
We might as well learn to
bury each other...
http://www.dickshovel.com/death.html
Trudell is accused...
Everyone back off
http://www.dickshovel.com/acc.html
Anna Mae Pictou Aquash
http://dickshovel.com/annalay.html
Official Website of the American Indian Movement
http://www.aimovement.org/
Info of the American Indian Movement
http://www.dickshovel.com/AIMIntro.html
http://www.dickshovel.com/aim101.html
The Manipulation of
Myrtle Poor Bear...
http://www.dickshovel.com/affa.html
Clarifying my thoughts
about Russell Means
by Stephen E. W. Savage
July 17, 2000
http://www.dickshovel.com/sav2.html
The FBI's Secret Wars against the Black Panther Party and the American Indian Movement
http://www.freepeltier.org/aquash_age...
More on Peltier
http://southdakotapolitics.blogs.com/...
WHY INDEED?!!!
"Silence, they say, is the voice of complicity.
But silence is impossible.
Silence screams.
Silence is a message,
just as doi "Silence, they say, is the voice of complicity.
But silence is impossible.
Silence screams.
Silence is a message,
just as doing nothing is an act.
Let who you are ring out & resonate
in every word & every deed.
Yes, become who you are.
There's no sidestepping your own being
or your own responsibility.
What you do is who you are.
You are your own comeuppance.
You become your own message.
You are the message.
In the Spirit of Crazy Horse"
~~Leonard Peltier~~
http://www.leonardpeltier.net/
http://www.aimovement.org/
Dont forget about these people.
Before Europeans came there was over 60 MILLION Native Americans Living in peace and harmony with nature. At the End of WW2 there was less than 800,000. That means that over 59 MILLION WERE KILLED AND MURDERED.
And the Jews Complain - This is the TRUE HOLOCAUST
And now we wonder why...
ENOUGH!!!!!
- Jesus Christ was a great guy. Miss Helfinger
17 y
4,575
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This is a reply to # 1,301,473He was an anarchist, freedom fighter, lover and a hippie. What more could you want?!?- Re: Jesus Christ was a great guy. UserX
17 y
4,607
Energy Awareness Course
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Original Dr. Hulda Clark
Hulda Clark Cleanses
- Re: Jesus Christ was a great guy. Miss Helfinger
17 y
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Energy Awareness Course
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Original Dr. Hulda Clark
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This is a reply to # 1,301,677Sorry - I fell out. No I wasn't, O. I was being rhetorical - should have posted under the original message. Everything that comes out of your keyboard I tend to agree with hands down.
- Re: Jesus Christ was a great guy. Miss Helfinger
17 y
4,540
- Re: Jesus Christ was a great guy. UserX
17 y
4,607
- Re: Iraq & Afghanistan?! Try The Am... #27054
17 y
4,486
MoreThis is a reply to # 1,301,473O, that was hard to watch, understand, how us humans can fall to such depth's.
Where children are seen it that sort of carnage we can never forgive ourselves, for they rely on us all for their safekeeping.
It is man that metes this out not God, the men with power for
"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men." God Forbid!
- Re: Iraq & Afghanistan?! Try The Am... turiya
17 y
4,591
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This is a reply to # 1,301,473A gripping post. I really could not make it through all of it. Mankind has sunk so low... we got work to do to get it up...
Its what I'm talking about...
//www.curezone.org/forums/fm.asp?i=1301812
- Re: Iraq & Afghanistan?! Try The Am... #27054
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This is a reply to # 1,301,869Don't tie everyone to the same brush turiya, there are many loving parents out there my friend, sensitive to a child's needs and not caught up in their own bad experiences to pass on to their offspring.- then, tell me, who are the most oppr... turiya
17 y
4,552
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- Perhaps.... turiya
17 y
4,569
This is a reply to # 1,301,953...you are not doing it consciously, tomi444...
Most parents are not aware of the abuses they cause.
Your father wanted you to be a doctor or an engineer. Nobody ever bothered about what your potential was; maybe you were born to be a poet. Now, forcing you to be an engineer is almost murdering you because engineering cannot be poetry, it is very unpoetic. You may be a born musician and forcing you to become a mathematician is violent, very violent. And for centuries we have been doing this to every child. The child is the most oppressed and exploited person in the whole world.
First we were thinking that the proletariat is the most oppressed class; then we became aware that even more than the proletariat, woman is the most exploited class. Now a third thing is happening. It is already happening.
Those who are pioneers, those who always go on exploring into the unknown, are becoming aware that the child is the most exploited and oppressed person and the most helpless. Even the proletariat are not so helpless. They can fight back, they have their unions and now they have great organizations, political parties and ideologies. The woman is also fighting back, asserting herself. But the child is the problem—who will fight for the child? Because he is so helpless he cannot have unions, he cannot be independent, he cannot earn his own livelihood. He is so utterly dependent that it is very easy to exploit him. And the people who have been exploiting him are not doing it consciously; in fact they intend to help the child in every possible way. They love the child, that’s what they say, but their love is unconscious and anything unconscious, even love, becomes poisonous.
Unconsciousness is poison; it can be destructive to any beautiful thing. And just the opposite is the case with consciousness: a man with consciousness can use even poison in such a way that it becomes medicinal. The unconscious man, even if you give him elixir, ambrosia, is bound to kill himself or others with it. He cannot do otherwise.
Parents are not consciously exploiting their children; they are doing for the child’s sake. They think that if he is an engineer, a scientist, a mathematician, a professor, a politician, a president, a prime minister, that will be good for him; if he is rich, has great money and wealth and name and fame, he will be happy in his life. But they are completely unconscious because they know… they know only in a very very vague way, it is not clear-cut.
They see presidents, prime ministers; they know they are not happy. They themselves may be rich and they know they are not happy. They may have succeeded in their life, in their profession, and they know that life has been just a stupid exercise of utter futility, nothing has been gained. But that’s all they know, and that’s all they can teach. With all good wishes they impose their ideas on the child. Because the child is their possession. The child is "mine".
"Mine-ness" is a disease. It is violent. It is a deeper kind of violence, not so easily seen. As soon as you say 'my child' possessiveness has begun... It is ownership of another person. It is creating enslavement. Whenever we become a person’s owner, we have just killed that person; we have destroyed that person the moment we claim ownership over him or her.
In fact, by owning a person we are treating them not as an individual but as an object. Then a wife becomes "mine"... the children become "my" children, in the same way that a house is mine. Naturally, whenever there is the relationship of ‘mine’, love is not the outcome. What is created is only conflict.
This is why in this world as long as a husband and wife or father and son keep claiming their ownership over each other, only conflict can happen between them – never friendship. The assertion of such ownership is the cause of the friendship’s destruction. Such an assertion of ownership puts everything awry; everything becomes violent.
Whenever there is an assertion of ownership, only hatred is created; and where there is hatred, violence is bound to follow. That is why all our relationships have become relationships of violence. Our families have come to be nothing but relationships of violence.
You can remain in denial if you'd like. You can paste it over with fluffy words like "love" and "being sensitive to a child's needs" But you know it for yourself in what is being said here.
That's why I say, who needs the Illuminati to become enslaved... we have done just fine on our own...
- Edited #28187
17 y
4,501
This is a reply to # 1,302,173the "turiyas". The spiritual seekers. They know they are missing something. And it haunts them. They want that perfection of Enlightenment. They feel that life is suffering and they want out. And they know there is no way out.
The ordinary person doesnt give any thought to such things and is satisfied by ordinary distractions of money,food or sex. they are slightly less conscious than an animal.
Children live in a natural state of bliss and contrary to your thesis it comes to end not because of oppression but because of the brain maturing and the developing ego.
It is true to say we enslave ourselves as we constantly create this sense of independent existence by self meditation. Yet very few seem to be able to escape this state. Perhaps only 1 in a billion can escape it,
therefore we are condemned to this
eternal torture.
No heaven,no hell , only this Churning Ego.
Can you name one true enlightened being who lives in America, who can transmit real shaktipat, who lives from the point of view of no ego.
- one true enlightened being... turiya
17 y
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- Edited #28187
17 y
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This is a reply to # 1,302,512I neither believe nor disbelieve.
I have seen the Siddha Guru myself.
Elias:
"I sat in Frank's chair and looked out over the room. I tried to
imagine how he felt, gazing down on a sea of faces, several hundred
pairs of eyes floating like fish in the sea, all looking back at the
fisherman.
I sat there for about ten minutes, and then reality suddenly shifted,
and I found myself actually seeing through his eyes. I was
experiencing the gathering of devotees the way he did, and it was a
very interesting experience.
I could see their faces before me, and they didn't seem like
individuals to me, but one great mass of life. They weren't
differentiated from one another -- their minds all bled into one
another, and their life force merged into a single field of energy.
It was my own energy and life force as well. Just as he says, "there
is no separation". The room was a sea of happiness.
I didn't repeat this experiment, but I was pleased with the
information it gave me. One can only hypothesize as to whether I was
actually picking up the "afterglow" of Frank's presence. At least it
was an entirely positive experience -- I was relieved to know that the
chair had no darkness in it. "- Re: All belief is a form of limitati... turiya
17 y
4,559
This is a reply to # 1,302,583then we are in agreement... belief in anything bars the truth... even in what you are saying about seeing the guruji yourself... to me, it is a belief that you have.
and then, if it is true for you, what need do you have for me to point one out to you? ...a need you have to compare... a habit you engage in for distraction... simply a game for you to keep playing... to keep you leaking sieve-like...- Edited #28187
17 y
4,544
This is a reply to # 1,302,655moved to Fiji.
You talk about this spiritual love in a very abstract way.
Someone said to OSHO, "J.Krishnamurti says we dont need a guru to get enlightened."
Osho said:"How would he know?"
It is very common to find people who resist the Guru-Disciple relationship. It is extremely rare to find any who are spiritually advanced. In fact there are very few people who have even experienced the extraordinary power of Shaktipat of a true Siddha Guru.
Shaktipat is the greatest advantage there is for spiritual work. I dont believe in Shaktipat, I simply have experienced it.
Jesus was said to have baptized with fire, which is Shaktipat.
The "baptism of fire" is only mentioned in two places in the Bible:
"I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire." (Matthew 3:11)
"John answered them all, "I baptize you with water. But one more powerful than I will come, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire."" (Luke 3:16)
- Re: Osho is gone,Frank has.... turiya
17 y
4,585
This is a reply to # 1,302,840It is my understanding that JKrishnamurti was lassoed by the ambitious elitists of the day into becoming the object of their Theosophist Movement. They very cunningly bribed his father to let his son return with them to England. J.Krishnamurti would did not agree unless his younger brother were also to go. Later, attempts by the father to see his children were refused. J.Krishnamurti became the object of theosphists' attempt to create a "world teacher".
They had oppressed him terribly as a child. He suffered their abuses for years. Under the tight control and the tough regimen in scheduling lectures he had grown to hate these people. The hardships from the abuses they inflicted upon these innocent children resulted in the death of his brother.
Such a miserable life these Theosophist elitists inflicted on Krishnamurti, perhaps it was partly responsible for his first satori. But afterwards, he was still quite angered with the way these elitists made him and his brother suffer.
He sat on his anger for years... until finally, On August 2, 1929, the opening day of the annual Star Camp at Ommen, Holland, Krishnamurti dissolved the Order of the Star of the East before its 3000 members which was founded in 1911 to proclaim the coming of the World Teacher. The members were awestruck.
For years afterwards he gave lectures to followers that he was not their teacher, perhaps the 'theosophist' hangover continued... because the more he denied his authority, the more it was an attraction for those that wanted someone to follow. It became his way of teaching... that no one needs a teacher.
Osho claims he had no Master of his own. In fact, he was asked where he would be sitting in the lecture hall if he was not enlightened. He responded to that question by saying that he would not be so "unenlightened" as to be sitting in an ashram like this. "You would not find me here at all. In fact, you would see me running fast to get be as far away from this place as possible".
Existence, itself, is enough of a Master for anyone.
- Re: Osho is gone,Frank has.... turiya
17 y
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- Edited #28187
17 y
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- Re: All belief is a form of limitati... turiya
17 y
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- Edited #28187
17 y
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-
- Re: Perhaps.... #27054
17 y
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This is a reply to # 1,302,173You said:-
[[[Every child has been deprived of their rights of being a human being, and left subject to countless abuses, to some degree or other.]]]
I said:-
[[[Don't tie everyone to the same brush turiya, there are many loving parents out there my friend, sensitive to a child's needs and not caught up in their own bad experiences to pass on to their offspring.]]]
You then say:-
[[[Most parents are not aware of the abuses they cause.]]]
Adding:-
[[[You can remain in denial if you'd like. You can paste it over with fluffy words like "love" and "being sensitive to a child's needs" But you know it for yourself in what is being said here.]]]
turiya, I agree, many children are abused, not only by their parents but other outside 'agencies'.
If "LOVE" and being "SENSITIVE" are "PASTED FLUFFY WORDS" then I'm at a loss to understand your interpretation of "LOVE".
Perhaps you have not yourself been given or felt love before I don't know, but you are certainly giving that impression turiya.
To use the words "conscious" or "unconscious" is to shroud ones mind with doubt over one's thinking.
To use condescending remarks such as "good boy"/"bad boy" infers that one has to insult a child's intelligence to gain control of them.
At the end of the day having absolute control over children is what you abhor.
Well so do many others, including myself, and of course children themselves.
I have NOT read one word from you yet coming forward with a positive solution to your 'post', perhaps homo-feral or something of that nature would suffice?
All I know is that those ingenious people that "O" was concerned about should have the freedom that they once had, and not be treated as sub-humans.
If anyone says that they have been given that freedom then I suggest that they live there for a couple of days and find out for themselves.
- Re: Perhaps.... turiya
17 y
4,567
This is a reply to # 1,302,300"I have NOT read one word from you yet coming forward with a positive solution to your 'post'"
---------------------------------------------------------------
all that is being said is:
we don't need any illuminati to make us slaves... we do it well enough on our own... enslaving ourselves.
we teach this to the children. not just one's 'own' children but all the children. not directly, not consciously, but by example... it is contagious.
we have enslaved ourselves... we have learned it from the previous generation... we teach it to the next generation... they will teach the next... and on and on it goes... and where will it stop?
it can only come to a full stop within oneself... within each one of us. it cannot be forced to be halted from without. it can only end with understanding...
in knowing that 'attachment' is not 'love'...
and 'possessiveness' is not 'freedom'...
that only in acceptance of oneself... becomes acceptance of the other... others
the word 'love' is one of those overly used words, like 'right', 'freedom' and 'liberty'... they has been used so much that they have lost all meaning... these words should all be banned from ever being used again for at least a 100 years... then perhaps, when uttered again, they will be pregnant with meaning again.
more often than not 'love' means 'attachment'. "I love you" really means "i am attached to you"... that "i want to possess you" when someone says it to another, it comes with conditions. one is waiting for the "I love you, too" to be repeated back to them... which really means "i want to possess you too!"
the word 'love' need not be ever be said. one can feel it if they are sensitive enough... love cannot have an address... it overflows out of an individual like a cup overflowing in all directions... one feels love flowing from someone whenever you come near such a person... one is so full of love it cannot be contained within because there is so much of it...
most everyone is looking to find love... from someone else... as if it is something you can get directly from someone else... as if someone else can give it to you. certainly, it is possible to feel that love is overflowing out of someone, but it cannot be something that is acquired or accumulated by someone else. it can be caught... one can be infected and affected by it... love is contagious... but cannot be possessed... it cannot be sought after aggressively, directly... it can be caught indirectly.
love allows the other freedom... to possess, makes the other a slave... and in doing so, one becomes a slave himself... then there are two slaves dependent on each other... such a relationship will only lead to conflict, politics, struggling for power over the other and just a misery. Beggars empty of love, bound together in a life of codependency... a mutual attachment, and with it an undercurrent of hatred... because no one likes to be so dependent on the other... everyone wants their freedom.
Freedom and love, they are two wings of the same bird... the bird needs both wings to fly... and this bird is called meditation... it will sprout the wings needed for you to fly.
- Re: Perhaps.... #27054
17 y
4,534
This is a reply to # 1,302,380So love shared in whatever form, enslaves.
I agree with that, but that enslavement gives us all a purpose to live our lives.
It gives us a light,if you wish, at the end of the tunnel, because without it there would be no point.
If my life consisted only of meditation (self-hypnosis) I would find myself at peace yes, but not conscientious enough to build a life with others.
It is easy to have the luxury of meditation, but only if the "enslaved" one
(through love) tilled the earth.
So it's a fantasy to have the 'freedom' that you speak of my friend, the earth must be nurtured for one to survive,
One just cannot sit in a cave to meditate and throw themselves at the mercy of freedom because you will simply perish, and what's the point of meditation in any case when in that world of yours only peace exist?
The point you make about teaching each other will still be necessary in your ideal world also, for who teaches you to meditate? they will need to go on from one generation to another, and on and on it goes, and where will it stop?
So you see it is a double-edged sword turiya.
So love (in whatever form it comes) our children need, if not the carnage will go on.
- Expand 20 messages, 21 to 40 of 92 turiya
17 y
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- Re: Perhaps.... #27054
17 y
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- Re: Perhaps.... turiya
17 y
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- Edited #28187
17 y
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- then, tell me, who are the most oppr... turiya
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