I have been questioning Dennis Hardy’s credentials. Here is his how he responded. I put it on her because I am sure he will have it erased. I did not attack him. I just want to know who is giving advice to people on here.

ME Q- is my question
DH A- is my response






Me Q-

Hi,

-I was just curious where you went to get your doctorate?




DH A-
I have been in private practice since 1978 my practice is a general practice working with all ages new born through old age
Training and qualifications:
ND (Doctor of Naturopathy) and PhD (Doctor of Philosophy in Holistic Health) from Clayton College of Natural Healing. MH (Master Herbalist) and OMD (Doctor of Oriental Medicine)from American Institute of Natural Healing. Learned Herbology and Nature Cure from Dr John R. Christopher. Learned Nutrition and iridology from Dr Bernard Jensen

REMEMBER !!! The most important Natural healing learning does not come from books and universities, it comes from Nature and from the people you help. And any day you do not help someone is a day wasted. Each night ask yourself “have I done any good today?” and if you can’t answer yes, you better ask God to forgive you for wasting that day.



Me Q-

Dennis, the problem I have with the school you went to, Clayton, is that it is not a recognized Naturopathic College. It is not accredited by the Council on Naturopathic Medical Education, the accrediting agency for naturopathic colleges and programs in the United States and Canada and recognized by both countries’ Education Departments.

NDs from an accredited school are only allowed to practice in a few states. Clayton is not recognized by any legitimate accrediting body and graduates cannot be licensed anywhere as a naturopathic physician.

I am a big proponent of naturopathic medicine and would like to see it licensed in more states. However that is hard to do when people use the title ND after their name from a correspondence school like Clayton. I am sure you are not being malicious and really want to help people, however you add fuel to the fire of people who think NDs are quacks.

A person form an accredited school needs a bachelor’s degree and needs to attend a four- year naturopathic school. If you really want to practice Naturopathic medicine why not go to a real naturopathic school? There is a school not far from you in Connecticut.

I am finishing up my bachelors and am applying to all of the Naturopathic Colleges. I am married with a family and have roots in my area, but I really want to be a naturopathic doctor, so I will go where the school is. I sometimes feel like the early Osteopaths that had to fight to get recognition. While I would like to see the naturopathic medicine become a little more mainstream (sometimes an Antibiotic is what really is needed) I don’t want to see them sell out. I also don’t want to see them get confused with practitioners there are not trained in an accredited facility. That just makes opponents to naturopathic medicine criticize the field more. A person with your experience could go to an accredited naturopathic college and excel.

Again, I am not trying to be critical. I am trying not to make this sound like a personal attack, which it isn’t.



DH A-

This forum is not a debate Forum but I’ll try to educate you

Licensing Natural Health is Bad Medicine
Health freedom is about consumer choice, expanding existing scope of practice laws, and obtaining holistic insurance coverage.
Regulating naturopathy restricts access to trained holistic consultants.
Inferior medical attention is not synonymous with natural health or common sense healthcare reform.
Legislating the licensing of naturopathic physicians (NPs) and dietitians will affect health care quality and affordability. Dietitians and NPs are pursuing licensure state-by-state in order to monopolize the fields of nutrition and naturopathy.

For the record, traditional naturopathy advocates oppose licensure for the following reasons:
Licensing makes the practices of traditional naturopathy and holistic nutrition counseling illegal.
An NP's education is accredited academically, not by the medical profession and their accrediting body, the American Medical Association's Liaison Committee on Medical Education (LCME).
Naturopathic physicians mix naturopathic and allopathic medicine without any sufficient medical training, hospital experience, or trauma education.
Licensed naturopathic physicians seek the status of primary care physicians without sufficient medical training. Dietitians seek the status of nutrition counselors without sufficient education in holistic nutrition.
Naturopathic physicians and dietitians advocate diagnostic care; traditional naturopaths and holistic nutrition counselors emphasize healthy lifestyle choices and wellness care.
Elevating NPs to primary care status will distort the practice and philosophy of true naturopathy, and will elevate the cost of consultation and natural substances to that of traditional medical pricing.
Consumers will no longer have access to traditional naturopathy consultants. Choices will be increasingly limited to special interest groups and low-tech, insufficiently-trained medical doctors.
Licensing dietitians as nutrition counselors will severely limit public access to such personal choices as macrobiotic foods, vegetarianism, organic and whole foods diets, and Ayurvedic nutrition.
I firmly believes in consumer choice, health freedom, and expanding the scope of practice among trained medical doctors. However, I do not support medically-unaccredited naturopathic physicians wishing to perform surgery, prescribe drugs, give injections or perform diagnostic tests and referring to their practice as naturopathy.
EARLY NATUROPATHY
In looking at the natural healers and naturopaths of the late 19th and early 20th centuries, one can find many common points. All of them believed in healing by bringing strength to the individual rather than by curing specific diseases. All had a reverence for nature, and many of them could point to specific observations that led to the formation of theories and practices. Personal experience of illness and recovery often led them to practice natural healing. They frequently learned from each other or studied on their own, instead of, or in addition to, receiving a formal education. Most were persecuted by the medical establishment. Those on record were highly successful, bringing good health to many people.

Some Basic Tenets and Theories of Natural Healing
Whether they emphasized the use of hydrotherapy, nutrition, manipulation, herbs, or homeopathy, the goal for all practitioners of natural healing was to stimulate the body to heal itself. Vis medicatrix naturae, or the healing power of nature, remains central to naturopathic philosophy today. Rather than trying to attack specific diseases, natural healers focus on cleansing and strengthening the body. Regardless of the specific methodology, and regardless of whether the healer practiced in the last century or is active today, the approach remains basically the same.

Naturopathy in America
Benedict Lust (1872-1945) gave Naturopathy its name. Born in Germany, Lust (pronounced Loost) came to the United States in 1892 to seek his fortune. Unfortunately for him, but fortunately for us today, he contracted a severe case of tuberculosis and returned home to die. Instead he found Father Kneipp and was healed. In 1896 he returned to the United States sanctioned by Kneipp to spread the word about the Water Cure .

Lust's ideas about natural healing were eclectic. While he was a proponent of the Kneipp Cure, he combined it with modalities he had learned from many of the other European nature doctors. By 1902, Lust had opened a Naturopathic sanatorium, established a Naturopathic college, begun a Naturopathic magazine, and opened a store that sold Kneipp products. Throughout his career, Lust spent much time and energy in fighting the American Medical Association and his local government. Naturopathy was often embroiled in controversy.

In fact, its name is controversial and the true origin of the name is unclear. It is known that the word was coined, possibly from "nature" and "homeopathy," a system of healing that Naturopaths had begun to use. Many early Naturopaths objected to the name because, in literal translation, it means natural disease. However, Lust credited it with helping to end his persecution. "The prosecution became so intense that we could not use the words cure, healing, therapy, therapist, physician, doctor, or any similar title. We were all in despair. Finally we decided to use the word 'Naturopath' as being the only safe term by which we could designate ourselves as having to do with "the nature cure" and disease (1921,479)."

Benedict Lust was a man of strongly held opinions. For example, he was: "Opposed to the processing of foods because such 'manufacture' tends to destroy their true nutritional values....Opposed to the administrations of all drugs and narcotics because they are unnatural elements which the human body is not capable of assimilating.... Opposed to the regimentation of the American people under medically controlled elements because such legislation will wipe out other methods of treatment and bring inestimable damage to the health of every man, woman,and child affected.... Opposed to any legislation which in practice would prevent a family from attending to its own ills or the choosing, by such family, of any type of treatment it might desire because such legislation restricts personal liberty and tends to take from the American people the right to use the beneficial homespun efficient remedies which have been handed down from generation to generation."
Other American Healers
As with most of the European healers, the American experience was that "incurable" illness led to healing through natural means and then to the desire to help others. Dr. Henry Lindlahr (1862-1924) was an industrialist until he developed "incurable" diabetes, which was always fatal in his day. He then sought help from Father Kneipp.

Upon recovery, at the age of 40, he embarked on medical school. In addition, he supplemented his classroom education with private instruction in osteopathy and an independent study of diet and nutrition. He began his practice as a natural healer before he received his medical degree. Lindlahr relied primarily on the most basic of natural remedies: proper diet, fresh air, light, water, and physical activity.

As a child Otis G. Carroll (1879-1962) suffered from rheumatic fever and severe juvenile arthritis. He found help from Alex LeDoux, a medical doctor who had studied with Father Kneipp. After his cure, he studied herbalism, then later studied with LeDoux. It was only after these years of informal education that he enrolled at the Cleveland College of Chiropractic, and while continuing his informal education with Dr. Lindlahr. The focus of Carroll's practice was on improving his patients' abilities to digest foods and absorb nutrients. To do this, he relied on hydrotherapy, herbs, and diet.

A number of other American doctors were important in the development, public interest and acceptance of natural healing and Naturopathy, including Louisa Lust, the wife of Benedict. Having studied in Europe with Arnold Rikli and others, she was already practicing as a natural healer before she met Lust. Others of note were Frederick W. Collins, a drugless physician who helped Dr. Lust spread the word about Naturopathy in America; Linda Burfield Hazard (1850-1939), a proponent of fasting; Bernarr Macfadden, originator of "Physcultopathy"; and many more.

The American Naturopathic Association
In 1902, Benedict Lust organized the Naturopathic Society of America, which was reorganized as the American Naturopathic Association (ANA) in 1919. In 1921, Lust was elected president for life. Shortly after he died, the organization split in two, forming the Eastern ANA and the Western ANA, each with its own constitution, officers, programs, and conventions.

Personality conflicts as well as philosophical difference led to the split. The Eastern naturopaths were determined to follow the example set forth by Kneipp et al.,while those in the West seemed determined to "medicalize" naturopathy. "The two camps developed their own textbooks which showed their different points of view: Paul Wendel's Standardized Naturopathy (1951) and Harry Riley Spitler's Basic Naturopathy (1948)."


Natural Healers and Education
It seems that most, if not all, of the American naturopaths whose work is well documented had some kind of formal training in the natural healing arts or in medicine. However, not all of this formal education occurred before they began to practice. For example, after learning natural healing from Father Kneipp and others informally and then establishing his practice, Benedict Lust earned degrees in osteopathy and medicine. When the American School of Naturopathy, which he had founded, gained its charter in 1905, it conferred on Lust the Doctor of Naturopathy degree.

Early practitioners of "the nature cure" learned through observation and self experimentation. Later healers learned by apprenticeship. Some had a conventional medical education but rebelled against it, and still others were educated in osteopathy and chiropractic, with the addition of intense independent study.

As to what kind of education these healers recommended for others, there was alsovariation. One healer, who felt that doctors should be artists rat her than scientists, said "Furnish them with the necessary portion of anatomy, physiology and biochemistry. But not too much of it.(Schweninger 1926, 43-46)".

Benedict Lust founded the American School of Naturopathy in 1901. Here students learned "basic sciences, physiotherapy, phytotherapy, geotherapy, electrotherapy, mechanotherapy. Degrees in naturopathy and chiropractic were granted." Lust also established a school of massage and physiotherapy. In addition to classroom education, he offered naturopathic home-study courses through his journal.

In 1947, in a speech before the Eastern ANA, Dr. Jesse Mercer Gehmann, president at the time, stated, "We need standards and we need more, to stand by them, once they are established.... These standards should insist upon a thorough training in basic Nature Cure. All students should be required to be thoroughly competent in applying the methods of the old Masters ... Our standards should include thorough training through study of Kneipp, Priessnitz, Just, Kuhne, Rikli, Trall, Schroth, Graham, Jennings, Lust and Macfadden ... We need adequate standards for entrance upon training for a Doctorate in Naturopathy, but these standards need NOT be, nor should they be patterned after the medical requirements. Our work is not based on awarped and decadent pathology, bacteriology, or biology (cited in Freibott 1990, #7)."
The Facts:

True Naturopathy is NOT Naturopathic Medicine.

Confusing Naturopathic Medicine with True Naturopathy is Bad Medicine.

Naturopathic Medicine

Perform
surgery

Prescribe
drugs

Diagnose and
treat illness

Aspire to become your
primary care physician--
without thorough training

Not acknowledged by AMA


Traditional Naturopathy


Perform non-invasive
proceedures


Provide education on herbs and
other natural foods


Teach benefits of
healthy lifestyle

Counsel on nutrition, historic remedies and lifestyle

Non-exclusive practice
and philosophy

Naturopaths From Clayton collage can practice in all but 11 states and the ANMA is working on those here is a link to the ANMA


http://anma.com/




http://anma.com/



2nd DH A-

This forum is not a debate Forum but I’ll try to educate you

you have a very good qusetion and it gave me a chance to voice the view of the ANMA
If you want to know the truth about the other schools check out that site
good luck and remember it is the knowlege thats is important not how or where you get it. Before you go to one of the schools you better do some research because
Naturopaths From Clayton collage can practice in all but 11 states and the ANMA is working on those here is a link to the ANMA


http://anma.com/


Now go out and play



ME Q-

The one objection I have with what you posted is that Clayton graduates can be licensed in all but 11 states. They can't be licensed as a ND-Naturopathic Doctor legitimately and recognized by a states medical association like a regionally accredited ND can.

Also the ANMA is not recognized by any legitimate (meaning recognized by the Department of Education) accreditation bodies in the United States.

I don’t have a problem with you practicing. However I think that a different title other than ND needs to be used. Maybe something like PTNM (practitioner of traditional naturopathic medicine) could be used. That would give less confusion and also cause less problems between the two groups. And since there is a large difference between the way mainstream & traditional naturopaths practice, this would differentiate the two and cause less confusing to consumers.

I agree also that mainstream NDs need more training in allopathic medicine. I think they need it for patient’s care and welfare. However I don’t think they should turn into drug pushers. What they really need is more clinical time and a real residency.

It’s only recently that Osteopaths have been fully recognized by the AMA. It was not till the ‘60s when they where allowed to become physicians in the military that it happened. Even after that it took awhile. And today most Osteopaths don’t practice Osteopathy. I think the big downfall is when they branched out and specialized in other things besides family practice.

I would like to see NDs licensed in all 50 states. They would receive more clinical training and have a standard residency. However they would be limited to general practice and not specialize in surgery, radiology and the like. Also they would be free to continue to dispense the kind of treatment they want without pressure to just hand out pharmaceuticals.

Like I said before, I am not being critical of you. Actually there are not many people with your education and experience that talk about this issue on here. Most of the people that support traditional naturopathy will come on here and blast you for having views like mine. However you recognize the difference between criticism and debate and have the knowledge to support your views.


DH A-

This forum is not a debate Forum but I’ll try to educate you
Your starting to lie already which is tipical of anyone that supports those schools you all use the same script
I did not say they were or needed to be licensed, I said they could practice
Before you go to one of the schools you better do some research because
Naturopaths From Clayton collage can practice in all but 11 states and the ANMA is working on those
and this forum is not a debate forum so i am done with you,, go out and play
but if you have any health problems a can help you with please let me know
now go out and play


Me Q-

Dennis Hardy, here is your post-

[i]This forum is not a debate Forum but I’ll try to educate you
Your starting to lie already which is tipical of anyone that supports those schools you all use the same script
I did not say they were or needed to be licensed, I said they could practice
Before you go to one of the schools you better do some research because
Naturopaths From Clayton collage can practice in all but 11 states and the ANMA is working on those
and this forum is not a debate forum so i am done with you,, go out and play
but if you have any health problems a can help you with please let me know
now go out and play[/i]


You went from being cordial to defensive pretty quick. And I am not lying and find that low of you by calling me a liar. “ Now go out and play”, that is a real adult comeback.

I am not a troll either. I have been a member of this board since Feb. and have posted about other things. Your attitude has taken a childish tone considering I have been nothing but cordial and respectful to you. I have been preparing to go to a legitimate naturopathic college for a few years. I looked at Clayton but it is a diploma mill that will give a degree to anyone with cash. Its ‘accreditators’ are the American Association of Drugless Practitioners and the American Naturopathic Medical Accreditation Board. These are not recognized by the Department of Education and their "accreditation" is worthless. I could set up my own accrediting organization and accredit any ‘fake’ school I want.

The only way you can’t practice traditional naturopathy is if it is stated in that state’s laws. It does not say in most state’s laws that you can’t practice naturopathy. It says that you can’t practice medicine without a license. Anybody can tell somebody to take herbs and such. So to say that someone from Clayton can practice in all but 11 states is a misnomer. Oregon does not ban naturopathy; it specifically bans Clayton graduates from getting any type of licensure though. Any Joe Schmo can hang up a shingle and say they are a naturopath.

The reason licensure is good is because it tells a patient that the physician has adequate training. This is people health for god sakes!

Here is what someone could do. With a bachelors degree they could sign up for Clayton, have someone else do all the course work for them, and become an ND. The tests are online and there is no proctor. You don’t have to ever step foot on the school campus (they don’t have a campus, it is just a room in a building-I called and asked). As long as you pay the tuition and finish the test you get a ‘doctorate’. IMHO this cheapens the word doctorate and gives ammunition to the critics of Naturopathy.


DH-A

this is not a debate forum sorry
please take your lies some where else