For the word of the Lord is right; and all his works are done in truth. He loveth righteousness and judgment: the earth is full of the goodness of the Lord.
Psalm 33:4-5 AKJV

rainy to ed:

" Even Jesus, whom you respect and admire greatly, used scripture in debates and teaching. It is true that He did not have the New Testament, but He sure did have the Old Testament. It was not canonized at the time, but it was considered scripture. Even Jesus considered these books to be scripture.

Canonization was not about a group of men getting together and deciding which books would be in our Bible as some preach in order to bring the Bible down. Enemies of the word of God use this line to bring confusion to people. Canonization was about putting a Bible together with the books that the early church already knew was scripture. Yes, there were heretical books that did not make it. The early Christians knew they were heretical."


2 Timothy 3:15-17 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

15 and that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.


i love this topic so i am using your words, rainy, as a jump off point. i thank you.

lets take a look at what the author of the passage in 2 timothy says. i say author and not paul for it appears that paul did not actually write it. there is a lot to that and its not my focus, but i do want to keep an open mind on it. i personally prefer the traditional view, as swindall so eloquently offers here:

http://www.insight.org/resources/bible/the-pauline-epistles/second-timothy

i dont think that is scholarly, but it certainly is romanitc, pardon any pun.

"the scriptures" are mentioned throughout the new testament by jesus and others. usually it is to point out how a passage is being fulfilled.

this instruction to timothy is important and a true saying as far as i can tell. it has stood me well to use the scriptures in just such a manner - not to justify myself or confirm a belief i have, but to show me where i was wrong and to correct my thinking. thats its job and have held it to these functions as an earnest effort to avoid abusing them like i see so many many many do.

but what did jesus and the apostles consider to be scripture? a lot of that depends on when it was spoken.

jesus, of course, is only talking about the 24 books (elders in revelation) of the old testament. the christian bible has this work divided into 39 books, but for the hebrews the tanakh (as it is called, not to ever be confused with that horrid talmud). the first five books are called torah or the law of moses. then there are the historical books, the writings like psalms and proverbs and the major and minor prophets. these are no doubt scripture for all time. i wouldnt call them untainted, but the lord preserved his word within, for sure. it is mostly tainted by bias for the jewish people, which is understandable. but it does a good job sticking to the facts, the bias being mostly in the translation and where the temptation was simply too great. so, word of god? a resounding yes. untouched by man? heck no.

so what else is scripture in this context in timothy?

well, certainly there are the four gospels, which no one argues about circulating widely and early, gathered as it were from multiple sources into the forms we have today, pretty much. they are also not untouched. in fact, the entire end of mark is a very late edition that appears to be a complete fabrication.

however, the four gospels are set together with the 24 books of the tanakh in the book of revelation. they are translated as being the four beasts there, but they are the four living or life givers. they are the words of jesus.

thus far we have the tanakh and the gospels that are scripture. that leaves the acts of the apostles and the epistles. i see acts as the second half of the gospel of luke. i would include it in the canon on that basis alone. but even if that were not the case, the work that jesus began needs to be shown continuing. this is also our introductiont o paul and the transformation of peter, both of which are critical concepts IMHO.

that leaves the epistles. paul endorsed much of what he wrote himself.

1 Corinthians 11
Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

this is no doubt written by paul which makes the things he writes tantamount to scripture in his eyes. perhaps that is why he makes the effort to qualify when it is NOT.

Romans 3:5
But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)

Romans 6:19
I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

Galatians 3:15
Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man’s covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.

but in 2 Corinthians he does not sound like scripture:

2 Corinthians 2:17
For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.

2 Corinthians 4:13
We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;

2 Corinthians 6:13
Now for a recompence in the same, (I speak as unto my children,) be ye also enlarged.

2 Corinthians 7:3
I speak not this to condemn you: for I have said before, that ye are in our hearts to die and live with you.

2 Corinthians 8:8
I speak not by commandment, but by occasion of the forwardness of others, and to prove the sincerity of your love.

2 Corinthians 11:17
That which I speak, I speak it not after the Lord, but as it were foolishly, in this confidence of boasting.

2 Corinthians 11:21
I speak as concerning reproach, as though we had been weak. Howbeit whereinsoever any is bold, (I speak foolishly,) I am bold also.

2 Corinthians 11:23
Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.

2 Corinthians 12:19
Again, think ye that we excuse ourselves unto you? we speak before God in Christ: but we do all things, dearly beloved, for your edifying.

2 Corinthians 13:3
since ye seek a proof of Christ speaking in me, which to you-ward is not weak, but is mighty in you.

it indicates a lack of confidence, a false bravado, and a lot of excuse making. they say that this may be several letters put together.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Epistle_to_the_Corinthians

they certainly seem more familiar and of a more personal note than hardcore christ business.

certainly, though, many of the things paul has given us is pure gold. this is backed up by peter.


2 Peter 3:15-17 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

so the list of real pauline material can be seen as canon.

authentic:
First Epistle to the Thessalonians
Epistle to the Galatians
First Epistle to the Corinthians
Second Epistle to the Corinthians
Epistle to the Philippians
Epistle to Philemon
Epistle to the Romans
may be authentic:
Epistle to the Ephesians
Epistle to the Colossians
Second Epistle to the Thessalonians
and the disputed ones:
First Epistle to Timothy
Second Epistle to Timothy
Epistle to Titus

the disputed ones include this verse in 2 timothy about scripture. i do not see a problem with with them, though they are fairly basic and generic as to their doctrines. they dont bother me in my canon. some have problems with paul saying women shouldnt speak. maybe i dont because i am a man. i can accept that. in fact, i feel no one should speak just because they can. people should have something to say or shut up, gender notwithstanding.

i like everything written by john. its inspired and accurate. its intimate and detailed. his gospel, his letters and revelation all make sense to me.

i also love james. he is direct, hard hitting, and a bit more sophisticated than most. he stumps the translators, which i like.

James 4:4-6

https://www.preceptaustin.org/james_45_commentary

Ideas include (1) James quoted from some unknown apocryphal work (2) The quote is an unrecorded statement of James' half brother Jesus. (3) James quotes from some NT passage. (4) James was paraphrasing an OT passage. (5) James was not quoting a specific single passage, but is summarizing truths found in several OT passages. (6) Finally, some commentators (and Bible translations) do not treat the first half of verse 5 as a "formula" introducing a quotation but as a sentence which stands by itself. Several of the translations emphasize this latter view by dividing verse 5 into two separate sentences…

Or think ye that the scripture speaketh in vain? Doth the spirit which he made to dwell in us long unto envying? (ASV)

Think ye that the scripture speaks in vain? Does the Spirit which has taken his abode in us desire enviously? (Darby)

Do you think what the scriptures have to say about this is a mere formality? Or do you imagine that this spirit of passionate jealousy is the Spirit he has caused to live in us? (Phillips)

Or think ye that, in vain, the scripture speaketh? Is it, for envying, that the spirit which hath taken an abode within us doth crave? (Rotherdam)


go the link for much more exciting analysis. its a doozy.

done for now