"Who here believes that God is super... 
Mighty.Sun.Tzu
10 y
1,424
By Steve Peace Harmon
IF YOU GET FEARFUL OF THINGS THAT ARE WEIRD, you will limit God of what He would like to show you and have you experience. The supernatural scares the natural person. One time I was speaking to a group of believers and I said, "Who here believes that God is supernatural and can do anything?" Everyone in the room responded enthusiastically, "Yeah! I do!" So I tested them. I told them of a miracle that was pretty radical. When I told them the miracle, at first, you could have heard a pin drop, and then you could hear them silently question and voice doubt with worry and fear. I said to them, "You said you believe that God is supernatural and can do anything." The reality is, many believe, but they really don't believe to the level they think they do. At times, God will try and broaden their faith, but they become resistant because it's uncomfortable.
One of the whole reasons why Jesus gave us the Comforter (Holy Spirit) was because He pulls us into deeper waters that are uncomfortable so we could grow in our faith. The Comforter is there so we learn to trust Him when we get that feeling of "weird" that is rooted in fear. All the word 'weird' means is 'abnormal'. Many times we will think that something is not of God because we think God is 'normal' according to our 21st century, western understanding of the word. God will try to take you out of your 'normal' and what is comfortable, but you can resist, because you have a will and God will respect it. God will make attempts throughout your life to pull you into those places where He wants to grow you in, but at the end of the day, you determine the water level that you walk in because that's how God designed it. You're in charge of whether you walk in the shallow waters or swim in the deep waters of faith. Let God stretch ya and break your boxes.... In the long run, you'll be glad you didn't resist...
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- Re: trust2009
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This is a reply to # 2,195,313I said it. if we agree/pray on something God would give it. but people agree on bad things for money for they think then they would be free, what a joke! it is indeed good to know it. - Re: vektek
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This is a reply to # 2,195,313I'd say this guy is the one that doesn't believe God can do anything, because he says God is not in control. He's an open theist. He says God is waiting on us to release Him to do things. He's the one that believes God is limited.
https://www.facebook.com/steve.p.harmon/posts/10151898796043586- Blind religion vs. obvious Truth. Mighty.Sun.Tzu
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This is a reply to # 2,195,354Are we still doing that thing where we have to agree with everything someone has ever written before we post a single article they wrote that we like?
Must the word "DISCLAIMER" continually be used for you to not dig up whatever you possibly can that you consider to be "dirt" on somebody? Your life as a defender of the religion of man known as Calvinism must get very tiresome Vektek :).
I just encountered this servant of the Lord and this one post for the first time yesterday. He said some things i had already agreed with and in essence, i agree also with his post that you linked. Another biblically and experientially backed post of his i agree with in essence is where he says this:
"Prayer is finding out what God wants you to pray and then asking Him to do it. Why doesn’t the Father call the legion of angels down? Because the Father is not in control because He gave it up to man for the purpose of freewill. Didn't Jesus empty himself out to become a Man? Of course He did, that's why the Holy Spirit came on Jesus like He does with believers. The Father only takes control if we give it to Him through prayer."
Wouldn't it be great if the obviously inaccurate Calvinistic expression that says "God is in control" were wrong by way of semantics? Wouldn't it be great if Calvin meant that God is in control in the lives of those who are truly surrendered to Him, who hear His voice and pray what he leads us to pray? When the guy on the temple steps got healed through Peter's prayer and if "God is in control", why did God not do anything for the man until Peter prayed for him? Reason? God has chosen to share control with His children... to allow us to be an important part of His work... and to release His miracles through our prayers when these prayers are in alignment with His will.
I highly recommend that you re-read book of Acts and ask yourself honestly, "why is my life as a Christian (and Calvin's and other "head smart" theologians who think they have it all figured out) so much different from these early followers of the Lord Jesus and so powerless and lacking by comparison?". "Could my powerlessness be due to my faulty theology which quenches the Holy Spirit and needs so badly to be re-examined?".
- Blind religion vs. obvious Truth. saywhatagain
10 y
1,059
This is a reply to # 2,195,447Interesting discussion on if God is control of everything. I tend to agree with your view on this MST, although the way that the author worded it in his post, the one vektek linked to, I didn't agree with his explanation of it. Here is my take:
God the Father is the force that is behind and inside everything in the universe. In one sense I think that God is in control because if he wanted to he could change everything or destroy everything but I don't think that God "wants" anything, this is a human emotion that God does not have. I think for the most part God allows us to make our own choices but he is always calling us back to Him in the deepest part of our hearts for anyone that will listen. God is most certainly in control of SOME things, especially through his true servants that have surrendered their will to His.
On the other hand it is also possible that God is in control of absolutely everything and He even could be guiding all of the terrible things and evil forces toward a goal of helping people to come back to Him. Sometimes I do think bad things can happen that serve a divine purpose.
Overall, either is possible and the real answer is only possible to know for sure if you have received divine revelation personally. Like many other topics in Christianity, the scriptures can be used to prove either side of the argument depending on your own personal bias or tradition. But certainly, I think we can agree that God is a guiding force on the earth and beyond.
- Blind religion vs. obvious Truth. saywhatagain
10 y
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This is a reply to # 2,195,461And vektek as far as God being limited, I think God chooses to limit Himself and allow forces like Satan to exist. If he had a will and wanted to control everything, wouldn't he just destroy Satan and all evil?
But realistically, we are sharing our opinions and if anyone claims to know the answers to things on this deep of a level is either completely connected to God or they are mistaking their opinion for ultimate truth.- Blind religion vs. obvious Truth. saywhatagain
10 y
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This is a reply to # 2,195,465Let's see, I'm not big on religious terms so I was just looking some up. Seems that theism is the general belief that God created and guides the world and the universe, as opposed to atheism, which would be the opposite of theism. My beliefs would fit into theism because although I don't think God guides every single action and allows individuals to make decisions, I do think God created the universe and the world and within this universe He created certain laws and structures, and He is present in all things, is omnicient and omnipresent, but I do think he allows other entities like Satan to also have power. I don't pretend to know God well enough that I can say why he allows this, that is not my place really. I have some ideas but it would be speculation. Regardless, even if we believe that God allows other entities to have power and create events in this world, that still fits into the general category of Theism as does Christianity as a religion as a whole.
Then there is Deism. Deism says that God created the universe but doesn't intervene at all, in other words there are no prophets, the only way we can understand anything is rationally. Is that what you were trying to say of the guy on facebook? This doesn't fit any definition of any Christianity that I know, but there are so many different beliefs, I'm sure we could find some group that believes this way. Certainly, my own beliefs do not fit with Deism in any way, and I highly doubt that the beliefs of the poster that you quoted or any other Christian would fit into Deism, but I have only read to two posts the you and MST have posted.
In some way, yes God is the force behind every action in the universe, but he still allows people and other entities to make decisions based on their own faulty perceptions. He does interact with us and is a guiding force in the world. I also believe He cares about every single being on this Earth. This still fits completely into Theism as far as I'm concerned, even though I don't think God controls every single event that happens on Earth (although again He is the force behind every event).- Re: Blind religion vs. obvious Truth... vektek
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This is a reply to # 2,195,497Saywhatagain, I haven't had time to thoroughly read your posts yet, but I will.
But I just wanted to say quickly, that what I was referring to is "open theism" which carries a very different meaning than the term "theism".
Here's a post I put up not long ago about it:
//www.curezone.org/forums/am.asp?i=2184391- Re: Blind religion vs. obvious Truth... saywhatagain
10 y
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This is a reply to # 2,195,560Okay, that makes more sense now, I was not familiar with open theism. I do believe that God is omniscient and omnipresent, and I do think He is the force behind every action, but not necessarily that He guides every action. I think God does allow some free will to be used, but I also do think that there is an underlying structure, a framework that is used by God and I think He does guide some events on the Earth and I am even open to the possibility that He could guide all events on the Earth. It is a very, very deep question. To know this answer, a person is essentially stating to know the core nature of God and the universe, something that I believe to be beyond the capacity of human comprehension. I believe this answer can possibly be known by some of the most dedicated seekers who experience the full glory of the Trinity.
I think it is good to know the attributes of God but once we start claiming to know the inner-workings of God and His whole plan for creation, to me this goes beyond what can be correctly discerned from the Bible and any intellectual knowledge.
Some questions that arise:
If God is the cause of every action good and bad, then God is responsible for people having evil actions that they are then judged and condemned by God for committing? Does this sound like a just God?
If God is the cause of every action, then it is God alone that is responsible for all atrocities on the Earth, such as the holocaust and other genocides. I am open to the possibility of God using terrible events for the good of human-kind as a whole, but it is a difficult leap to believe that God purposely creates all these terrible events to create so much human suffering.
I'm not saying you have to respond to all these, just throwing them out there as well as many other questions that would not fit into the attributes we know of God of He was the immediate cause of every single action on Earth. To me, it seems much more realistic to believe that God does allow His human children free will to interact and either follow Him or Satan. He knows every action that will take place in all of time and space and He helps shape these events (and yes I do think He can even use the actions of evil people to achieve some purpose). He allows others to use their free well to make choices, of which he knows full-well what they will all be in advance. This is my point of view with what seems to fit with Biblical scripture and what I understand of the attributes of God. You may have a different point of view that you feel fits with Biblical scripture, but I don't think either of us could say with absolute certainty that we were correct, unless one of us was so completely emerged in the Trinity that we could know and experience the ultimate nature of God.- Re: Blind religion vs. obvious Truth... vektek
10 y
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This is a reply to # 2,195,572Saywhatagain, Romans 9 answers some of your questions. Paul anticipated that what he was saying would bring up the question, "Is there unjustice on God's part?" and you can read his answer to that down below.
Free will and God's control of all things go together. Free will in no way rules God though. One of the best examples we have of this is the crucifixion of Christ. God accomplished exactly what he set out to accomplish from the foundation of the world with the crucifixion of His son. Yet those that killed him acted in their free will. They wanted to kill Jesus.
Another great example is the story of Joseph. His brothers acted in their free will to sale him into slavery. But God had a much grander plan for Joseph despite the evil free will actions of his brothers.
Genesis 50:20
As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.
The scriptures plainly reveal what God's plan is. It's to save his people and bring them to Himself to live with Him for eternity. Nothing will cause Him to fail at this and the scriptures say he will not lose even one.
John 6:
38For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
Romans 9:
9 I am speaking the truth in Christ—I am not lying; my conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit—2 that I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my kinsmen according to the flesh. 4 They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. 5 To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. 9 For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” 10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls—12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion,2 but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? 25 As indeed he says in Hosea,
“Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’
and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’”
26 “And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’
there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”
27 And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved, 28 for the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth fully and without delay.” 29 And as Isaiah predicted,
“If the Lord of hosts had not left us offspring, we would have been like Sodom and become like Gomorrah.”
30 What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness4 did not succeed in reaching that law. 32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, 33 as it is written,
“Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense;
and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”
- Re: Blind religion vs. obvious Truth... saywhatagain
10 y
1,031
This is a reply to # 2,195,587Yes, some good scriptures there. You said:
'Free will and God's control of all things go together. Free will in no way rules God though. One of the best examples we have of this is the crucifixion of Christ. God accomplished exactly what he set out to accomplish from the foundation of the world with the crucifixion of His son. Yet those that killed him acted in their free will. They wanted to kill Jesus.'
Yes I agree with you for the most part. The free will of God's children and the plan and workings of God go together, but I just don't think that this necessarily means God controls all things. Yes, when God sent Jesus to the Earth, He knew He would be crucified by evil people. He knew the minds of those people and their evil intent and He placed His Son there to be crucified. But I don't think that God placed those malicious thoughts and actions of the people in their own minds. I think that came from the forces of Satan and those people using their free will incorrectly, and God knowing their hearts and actions, used them to accomplish His purposes and I believe this is typically, the way that God works. If God really controlled everything, there would be no free will because He would place all thoughts and intentions directly into every person.
Romans 9 is an interesting scripture, and does seem to say God can create evil people just to be destroyed and He can create good people to be glorified. But it can't just all be God creating good people to be uplifted and bad people to be destroyed, otherwise there is no point to all of existence. We see that bad people can use their free will to ask for the God's mercy and He grants it to Him. God could force someone to come to Him and ask for mercy if He wanted to. But I don't think that is the way God works. I mean the whole mission of Christ and the writings of the apostles are all there so that we can use our free will to receive God's mercy. If God is the one causing us to ask for mercy and it is not our own free will, then none of the scriptures or life as we know it makes any sense.
I don't know, generally I do agree that God guides most events and things that happen. It is just when you say God controls everything that I can't agree with completely. Because if God controlled everything, He would also control our thoughts and desires and would nullify any free will that we possessed. If He controlled everything, He wouldn't need to use scriptures and prophets. He would just control our minds to make us repent. I don't know, I still don't think any of these scriptures say conclusively that God controls every single thing that happens on this Earth.
How I look at it and how it seems to make sense to me from the scriptures, is God allows all people to use their free will and those that repent and receive God's mercy are uplifted and those that don't come to Him receive their deserved punishment, not because He wants to punish them but because it is a direct result of their sinful nature and their refusal to receive God's grace. When there are atrocities and catastrophes, that is a result of the sinful nature of man using their free will incorrectly and rejecting God's grace. Anyone that receives God's grace will live in bliss and peace forever, anyone that doesn't will live in suffering in this world and beyond. I also think God can and does use suffering and misery that is a result of sin to draw people away from sin and to Him, and that is why there is suffering and misery, due to the sinful state of man.- Re: Blind religion vs. obvious Truth... vektek
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This is a reply to # 2,195,612Saywhatagain, one of the debates in Christianity is on how bad was the fall. Some say, well it was bad, but people still have the ability to do good and choose God. Others, like me, say no, the scriptures make it sound like it was worse than bad, that Adam died spiritually, and therefore we were all born spiritually dead, and unable by anything within us, to choose God and do good according to him, apart from his doing a work in us (cause us to be born again).
1 Peter 1:3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
You have this scripture that sums up the fall of man:
Romans 3:
9What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, 10as it is written:
“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”
13“Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive.”
“The venom of asps is under their lips.”
14 “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”
15“Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 in their paths are ruin and misery,
17and the way of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
No one seeks after God it says.
Then we have these scriptures:
1 Corinthians 2:14
The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
John 6:34
44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
There are more, but I think the bible makes it clear that no one is seeking God apart from him doing a work in them. I think Paul's conversion is a very good example for us to see that it was not Paul seeking God. On the road to Damascus where God struck him down, he was not seeking God, but seeking to destroy God's people. But God had another plan for Paul. He took his stony heart and gave him a new heart. And I believe this is how it works with any child of God.
Ezekial 36:26
And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
Philippians 2:13
For it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
I don't believe God puts the evil thoughts and actions in people. I believe evil thoughts and actions just come natural to human nature.
But also listen to what these scriptures say, and see what you think:
Proverbs 21:1
The king’s heart is a stream of water in the hand of the LORD; he turns it wherever he will.
Proverbs 16:9
The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps.
Proverbs 19:21
Many are the plans in the mind of a man, but it is the purpose of the Lord that will stand.
Proverbs 16:4
4 The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Daniel 4:35
All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and he does according to his will among the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand or say to him, “What have you done?”
Isaiah 14:27
For the Lord of hosts has purposed, and who will annul it? His hand is stretched out, and who will turn it back?
Proverbs 16:33
The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord.
Job 12:13-16
“With God are wisdom and might; he has counsel and understanding. If he tears down, none can rebuild; if he shuts a man in, none can open. If he withholds the waters, they dry up; if he sends them out, they overwhelm the land. With him are strength and sound wisdom; the deceived and the deceiver are his.
Isaiah 46:11
Calling a bird of prey from the east, the man of my counsel from a far country. I have spoken, and I will bring it to pass; I have purposed, and I will do it.
Job 12:23
He makes nations great, and he destroys them; he enlarges nations, and leads them away.
Isaiah 45:7
I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the Lord, who does all these things.
There are more scriptures I could post, but I'm sure you get the point.
Human nature doesn't want God to be God and that's been a problem from the beginning. But to me, all the theology out there that wants to limit God and make him a weaker God that is thrown about here and there by the free will of man, is made foolish in light of these scriptures.
- Re: Blind religion vs. obvious Truth... saywhatagain
10 y
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This is a reply to # 2,195,631Wow, Vektek,I couldn't disagree with you more on what you are saying and for all of the posting you do saying people are preaching false doctrine, you are preaching 100% false doctrine. I hope that maybe I am just misunderstanding what you are trying to say.
Yes man is born in a dead and fallen state on that we agree. But since God pervades all things and all beings even though we are sinful and fallen we have to capacity for good. God calls all men and women back to him good or evil and it is our choice to ask for God's mercy or deny it. You can quote scriptures till you are blue in the face but what you are preaching is false doctrine. You are going against the fundamentals of Christianity that all men and women can be saved through God's grace through faith in Christ. It is the free will of man to choose or deny the grace of Christ.
God is all powerful and can do as He pleases, He wants to guide all beings to Him, man is in a fallen state and without God's grace is nothing. This is what all of your scriptures are saying and this is correct, but how you get from there to saying we are "unable by anything within us, to choose God", that is a mystery to me. You give one example of Paul, which is by far the exception to the rule, compared to all others who seek and pray with God in your heart and all the teachings of Christ to receive His grace. If we cannot choose to receive God's grace or reject it, it is all pointless.
I really have no clue where you are getting this from; did you grow up in a church that preached this false doctrine or something? It is very confusing since you seem to be so strict on preaching correct doctrine of Christ. And anyway what is the point of you even posting on this forum if God already has decided who he created to be condemned and who he created to be saved? I do think God knows who will accept his grace and who will reject it, but it is still the choice of each individual.- Re: Blind religion vs. obvious Truth... vektek
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This is a reply to # 2,195,638Saywhatagain, Welcome to the long centuries drawn out debate of Arminianism and Calvinism.
You obviously side with the Arminians. :)
Charles Spurgeon, one of the greatest preachers of all time, whom Arminians like to quote a lot, said Calvinism is the gospel, and anyone that does not believe the doctrines of Calvinism, are heretics. I just give that example to show that there are very strong opinions on both sides as to what false doctrine is. Calvinists believe Arminians preach false doctrines and some will even say, Arminians preach a false gospel.
I do not like to call myself a Calvinist and I've said why many times on here. The term Calvinism has gotten a huge amount of baggage over the years. But then again, so has Armianism.
I prefer to call myself a Christian. I believe my beliefs line up with the Bible otherwise I wouldn't believe them. I found old threads here on curezone last night that really peaked my interest. One of the posters I found went by the name PBC. His beliefs sounded very much like mine. Someone asked him if he was a Calvinist, and he said he didn't know anything about any of that, that his beliefs came from the bible. I'd love for PBC to come back and help me out. :)
Whether you like it or not, the doctrines of Calvinism, which include some of what I posted in my post, are not considered heretical within Christianity. You basically have two camps within Christianity, Arminianism and Calvinism and everyone's beliefs will fall into one or the other, despite people saying they don't fall in either camp. They do!
So I understand that if this is all new to you, it's shocking, but the Calvinistic beliefs have been around for a while. In fact, most christians used to be calvinists but somewhere in time, that changed. Calvinism is very much on the rise though, and who knows, it may become the majority once again.
I guess I'm rambling with all this.
I will end this by saying, yes, I very much believe we choose God, but that he chooses us first.
1 John 4:19
19 We love because he first loved us.
John 15:16
You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.
Acts 13:48
And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.
- Re: Blind religion vs. obvious Truth... saywhatagain
10 y
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This is a reply to # 2,195,651Okay, interesting. I don't really know much about Calvinism except it is one of those names of people that broke away from the Catholic Church, but I will have to look into it more. I am interested in how people get to certain beliefs. When I was younger, I mainly attended Bible study groups, not church per-se, also read and study the Bible a lot on my own. One of the core beliefs in my heart is that God calls all men and women to Him, God loves all people even in our sinful nature and the only one thing we can actually do on this Earth is to either accept or reject the grace of God.
So can I ask, what led you to believe the way you do on this topic? Did you grow up or convert to a specific church that preached this type of doctrine and if so what church was that? Or did you just draw your own conclusions based on your interpretation of the Gospel and if this was the case, what made you come to your conclusions? Obviously there are scriptures that could be quoted on both sides of this debate so to just say this is what the Bible teaches doesn't quite do it for me.- Re: Blind religion vs. obvious Truth... vektek
10 y
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This is a reply to # 2,195,663I believe that God puts the call out to everyone as well. That's why we are commanded to preach the gospel to the ends of the earth. I also believe that God has a general love for everyone. For example, he sends the sunshine and the rain for the righteous and the unrighteous.
But I believe he has a special everlasting effectual love for His sheep:
John 17:9
I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours.
"So can I ask, what led you to believe the way you do on this topic?"
At the time I came to believe what I believe about this topic, I had just come out of a cult I grew up in. My parents had just divorced. And I had lost contact with all my friends I grew up with since everyone kind of went their separate ways after a big split happened in the church I grew up in. So it was a very hard time for me. I remember my dad and I were painting my room. I didn't have the best relationship with my dad at the time but we were doing this project together and we started talking. That is when he brought up this subject, about God being the one that chooses us, before we can choose him. With my emotions all over the place with all I was going through, I remember feeling like I was just going to explode. So I excused myself, went to the bathroom, and literally bawled and bawled, and I told God that I didn't know what to believe anymore, that everything was so confusing, and that I felt like I was having to relearn everything I had ever learned in my life. I was about nineteen at the time. I continued to pray and I told God that I just wanted truth, more than anything, that I was tired of being mislead and that I didn't care what the truth was, or how hard it was to accept, that I just wanted truth and I begged him to show me the truth about this. And it was very soon after that, that the scriptures became very plain to me and I could not deny what they were saying. And from then on, I saw it all through out the bible. Then I watched my sister argue for the next several years over this topic with my dad. She was very much against it and thought it was evil what my dad was saying. But then years later, she came to believe it too. I have seen tons of people fight it and fight it, and then finally they see it and can't deny it.
- Re: Blind religion vs. obvious Truth... saywhatagain
10 y
1,114
This is a reply to # 2,195,677Thanks for sharing your experience with that it really helps me to understand where you are coming from. I think how we come through our darkest times is really what defines us, do we become angry and bitter or does it make us humble and desiring only for God's grace. In my own life, I know that I have seeked Him the most in my darkest hours.
I am open to the possibility that you might be right. I have also debated this topic within myself many times but I have always come to the same conclusion that we have to choose for ourselves whether to receive or reject God's grace. However, I do also have some beliefs that go along with what you are saying.
I do believe that God knows who will receive Him or reject Him before we are born, so could those who He already knows will receive His grace be who He is referring to as His chosen? We are His chosen because He knows we will accept His grace, therefore He speaks of us as those He chose, even though it was still us that chose to receive His grace.
This next thing is only partly based on scripture but something that I have always felt in my heart that we have all existed as souls before we came to this Earth and we had a certain relationship with God before we came here, this would explain why some people would be in His fold and others are not. Revelation chapter 12 talks about Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon and his angels. It also says that the dragon took a third of the stars in heaven and cast them to Earth. I believe this war happened before anyone came to Earth, meaning we all existed before we came here and depending on our role in this war and our relationship with God before we came here, that has a big impact on the life we live and if we are among His fold. I realize this is a bit of a stretch and I am certainly not preaching it as doctrine but it is something that I believe and feel deeply in my soul. I would be interested in your opinion on this.- Re: Blind religion vs. obvious Truth... vektek
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This is a reply to # 2,195,806Saywhatagain, I too have sought God the most in my darkest hours. So I have no doubt God uses suffering for good.
You said, "I do believe that God knows who will receive Him or reject Him before we are born, so could those who He already knows will receive His grace be who He is referring to as His chosen? We are His chosen because He knows we will accept His grace, therefore He speaks of us as those He chose, even though it was still us that chose to receive His grace."
This is what Arminian theology teaches, that God knows the end from the beginning, and so he looks through the corridors of time and sees who will choose him and who will not and that determines his choice.
But this is why I can't see it that way. First you have this scripture that says:
Romans 3:11
"No one seeks for God."
And that is talking about before someone is born again. After someone is born again, then they will seek after God.
That's why Jesus said this:
John 3:3
Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
1 Corinthians 2:14
The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
John 3:6
6That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
So the natural man does not seek after God and cannot accept the things of the Spirit of God, and the only way this can change, is that he be born again.
So how is someone born again?
John 3:8
8The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
Can the natural man who doesn't seek after God and cannot accept the things of God because they are foolishness to him, all the sudden do the most incredible miracle, and cause himself to be born again? Or does that scripture say, it's of the Spirit that we are born again? I believe this is why Jesus describes it like the mysterious wind, because it doesn't come from us, it comes from the Spirit.
The bible describes us as dead in our sins, and it obviously means spiritually dead and not physically dead. Can a spiritually dead person make themselves alive?
Ephesians 2:4
4But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5even when we were dead in our trespasses, MADE US ALIVE together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
The passage clearly says there that is was God that made us alive.
He is the one that caused us to be born again.
1 Peter 1:3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, HE HAS CAUSED US TO BE BORN AGAIN to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.
The natural man who doesn't seek after God and cannot accept the things of God because they are foolishness to him, can in no way cause himself to be born again, but God can cause that stubborn, foolish, prideful person to be born again! And this is what he did with Paul and with anyone that believes in Him. God caused Paul to be born again on that road to Damascus, and he went from hating God to loving God and willing to suffer greatly for God. He was a new creation! After God caused Paul to be born again, that is when he repented and believed, not before.
2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.
Notice again in this scripture, who causes us to be born again?
John 1:9
9The true light, which gives light to everyone, was coming into the world. 10He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. 11He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. 12But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
It specifically says here that it's not the will of the flesh that causes us to be born again, or the will of man. So our free will decision can't cause us to be born again. Only God can do this. And when God causes us to be born again, we will receive him and believe on his name, and he will give us the right to become his children.
Romans 9:14 reinforces what John 1:9 is saying:
What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion,2 but on God, who has mercy.
Salvation depends on God it says, and not on human will or exertion.
And then in Romans 9:11 it also says this:
"Though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls."
God has a purpose in election and it's decided before the foundation of the world before we are able to do anything good or bad. And if it was that God looked through the corridors of time and saw that some would choose him and some wouldn't, and that's how he made his decision, would that scripture make any sense? Choosing to believe in God, putting our faith in God, is the greatest good we could ever do. It is through faith that we are justified. If God looked through the corridors of time and chose those that had chosen him, that would mean he was basing his choice on something very good we did, which would be contrary to what that scripture says.
But the bible says God is the author and finisher of our faith:
Hebrews 12:2
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
If someone wrote a best selling book and I claimed to be the author of it instead, I wonder how that would go over?
God is the author of our faith, not us.
Consider these scriptures too:
James 1:18 - Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
2 Timothy 1:9 - Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began.
John 15:16 - Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and [that] your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
Notice in all these passages, there is a strong emphasis on God's purpose and will.
I'll end this with this passage, probably my favorite in the whole bible, and I believe it sums up everything:
Ephesians 1:
"3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
11In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory."
I'll probably let someone else answer that second part of your post sense I'm not sure what to say on that. I'll just say that I do not believe in the immortality of the soul, except for believers, which would apply somewhat to what you are saying I think. But that could start a whole other debate. :)
- Re: Blind religion vs. obvious Truth... saywhatagain
10 y
1,078
This is a reply to # 2,195,962Thank you for the long response. I completely understand your point of view and I respect it but I also completely disagree with it and I don't think any further discussion is going to resolve anything between this. However, I am always open to the possibility that I am wrong because I am not completely guided by the Holy Spirit and I need to search the scriptures more. If the Lord shows me that I am incorrect in my views on this, I will gladly accept it. I only want to understand the truth in all things and I know that this requires an open-minded viewpoint. Once we have decided that we understand something and become close-minded and set in our ways, the Lord can no longer work on us. It is only when I have experienced something myself, such as God's love, that I am set firm in that belief and nothing can shake it.
In other words, I had faith that God loves me, then I experienced that love so strongly, now it no longer requires faith and I am unshakable in my knowledge of this and nothing anyone can do or say could make me believe otherwise. Also, that Christ is the savior and other core things that I have experienced for myself first-hand make me unshakable and firm in my beliefs. Most other aspects of the Gospel I am still just a baby and learning.- Re: Blind religion vs. obvious Truth... vektek
10 y
2,350
This is a reply to # 2,195,995Fair enough! I honestly did not expect you to readily accept all this anyway. It's a hard doctrine!
And I agree, we can never go wrong sincerely asking God to show us the truth, and patiently waiting for him to reveal it to us.
- Re: Blind religion vs. obvious Truth... vektek
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