good one, ed. lol im going to skip over the amen corner and begin HERE:
ed: here again it seems you are saying that you feel the entire bible is His word, but obviously this is not my position. Since you don't necessarily oppose genocide, infanticide and slavery, then the absurdities and atrocities in the bible branch out into lots of other areas such as God sanctioned rape. But pertaining to the various genocides, to me it is far more likely that a wicked people did these things and justified them by ascribing them to God rather than the infinitely wise and loving Heavenly Father of Jesus actually doing these things.
well, we have established that mans handling has left some pretty nasty smudges on the text. my step grandmother was from enid oklahoma and she told a story of a woman who ran out of the sears catalog in the outhouse. she replenished her supply of wipes with the family bible. i forget what the particulars were but the punchline was that this eventually killed her. and of course there is swearing on a bible and all other manner of worship and deification of a book people hadnt read ten lines in. they make a great coffee table book. my grandma. she had a plastic jesus on the dash of her 1958 bel air. sigh. she was otherwise nuts, too - a necromancer and member of the eastern star. she talked to her dead husband who was in his forties when he married her at 16. my grandpa married her because he thought she was at deaths door and it was a good wayt o double his pension at boeing. their assisted care ate every penny they ever had and she outlived him. i still shake my head at those two. so, 100%.... eeehhh, not really. but heaven sent? yea, it is what we are given and i have received it with gratitude and have come to appreciate it in its totality. the deeper you go, the more complicated it becomes. people are what makes the difference. jesus says take no thought for the morrow and the first thing a christian asks is if you died tomorrow do you know where you would go? lolol or he who seeks his life shall lose it but christianity is all about being saved. go figure. you dont need fake scripture to come up with fake interpretation. paul says treat your wife as your own body and then says he beats his body daily and then says follow me as i follow christ. can you imagine the happy congregation in the church that preached that?
Ed: Here again we agree and here again i feel the institutionalized religious system swindled the unsuspecting sheep into a particularly evil, filthy and psychopathic lie. Further i believe the bible itself has far more verses pointing away from this idea than towards it, most especially when one considers the massivity of the mistranslated key words such as Gehenna, Sheol, Hades, and Tartarus all to the word Hell when none of the four words mean the same as institutionalized religions or dante's infernos' idea of a place where unbelievers are tormented for for all eternity. As well in various places the word that means "for a time" got mistranslated into its opposite which is "eternity". I see it as having developed like an urban myth that became incredibly popularized but not based in any truth.
I think you and i would agree that the concept of eternal torment in hell works heavily in the favor of the institutionalized religious system as far as controlling, dominating and intimidating people into doing what it wants.
what helped my understanding of the bible itself was learning some basics about the languages and doing some translating myself and with a friend of mine. seeking. thats the key to finding. eventually i have come to recognize the words and phrases and keep them in context for better understanding. i use the king james, not because i am worshipful of it (its actually horrible in parts)but because it is the most universally accepted form. you dont see modern translations straying too far from it as well. and in some places it is some of the most beautiful words i have ever heard. its the version i did all my memory verse work as a child with, so that helps, too. a really good and readable work is called the modern language bible or the berkeley version. its just a good reader and the one i did most of my english studying in. my interlinears are jay green and his new king james version and all numbered to strongs so its easy to work with since i cant actually speak or read those languages. there was a sort of renaissance of bible study helps in the late 70s and all these books were readily available in the bible book stores. now its so commercialized its not funny. new translations all the time, christian fiction out the wazoo and book after book telling you popular ways to view the scriptures, most of which are abominations. i feel sorry for anyone in this day and age growing up or seeking the truth. the whole world has become the internet where you find p 0 r n and gore and naked pictures of your mom. no wonder kids are confused. so yea, if you can get people to be scared out of their minds of being boiled in excrement for all neverending time then youve got a pretty powerful sales tool at your disposal.
ed: When you say you don't feel comfortable declaring things against God and when you imply that challenging parts of the bible is arrogant, you are [better until verified to have said seem to be] equating every part of the bible with God as if they are indistinguishable and inseparable.
steve: nope. youre putting words and intent in my mouth. i think ive made my position pretty clear. i agree with the factualness of the bible and how it describes things.
ed: when parts of the bible were being challenged in the original post your response that you don't feel comfortable declaring things against God and that this seemed arrogant to you made it seem that you were looking upon the challenging of these bible verses as to whether God actually did these things as God Himself being challenged when this was not at all the case from my perspective and that of the person who listed the atrocities. If this is not the case, then are you able to clarify what you were referring to with your words about this?
To simplify this question, when parts of the bible are being challenged, specifically parts where various atrocities are ascribed to God (or non-atrocious baby killings, etc depending upon your point of view), do you equate these challenges against the bible and against the doctrines of biblical perfection as being challenges against God Himself? To be very clear, i absolutely don't and for me it's the exact opposite.
Steve: one mans atrocity is another mans justice.
ed: i propose at least as a possibility to contemplate that the nationalistic writings of various israelites which proclaimed that God wanted them to conquor lands and wipe out every man, woman, child and beast was not necessarily God's heart or His justice. I suggest it's far more likely that evil people wanted to justify their evil deeds and how better to do so than to say "God told us to do it"?. As a means of perspective, i want to pose the question, does this seem to be in alignment with the character of Jesus and the Heavenly Father He described with His own words? I would say that either God grew up and matured a whole lot (i am being facetious), or that He was falsely and slanderously depicted throughout much of the old testament.
If we are to be very honest with ourselves, these deeds of israel are very similar to the deeds of al Quaida and isis who will also point to their "also inerrant holy book" as justification. I propose that someone living in a largely christian area (like the usa) who has become a fundamentalist inerrant bible christian and who supports all of the genocide in the bible as ascribed to God has such a mentality that they are very likely to have been a fundamentalist muslim had they been born in iran or Saudi arabia, believing with equal zealousness and fanaticism that their religion and their book are the right ones and 100% true and that everybody else is dead wrong. I would also suggest that this was the mentality that existed within the Roman Catholic Church during the crusades and the inquisition.
ah, yes, the 800 pound gorilla in the room.
you know, i get the jews. i am one in my heart. but i also get the ones jesus accused of being of the synagogue of satan. its all very convoluted and such a mixing and matching of things just to create confusion, fear, guilt and to manipulate both jew and goy. america is as contradictory about the state of israel as christians are about the bible. deception and manipulation being at the heart of both relationships.
1 Samuel 3:1
And the child Samuel ministered unto the Lord before Eli. And the word of the Lord was precious in those days; there was no open vision.
there is nothing new under the sun. things go in cycles. this is what is so precious to me about the bible. its meaning is as true as a sunrise and rare as hens teeth. believe what you will, america ran on the good graces of folk who feared god and did what they thought was right, just like in the days of the judges. but the comfort riches allows degeneracy to spread and perversion sets in. people go from internal control to external control. and the more they loose self control the more they need a ruler, someone who can decide for them because they have lost that ability. america is clamouring for a king.
thanks for the conversation. i will leave with samuel 8 which describes the deterioration of the society and they call for a dictator. and guess who will be behind al that? the one with the samson option in his pocket.
1 Samuel 8 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
8 And it came to pass, when Samuel was old, that he made his sons judges over Israel. 2 Now the name of his firstborn was Joel; and the name of his second, Abiah: they were judges in Beer-sheba.
3 And his sons walked not in his ways, but turned aside after lucre, and took bribes, and perverted judgment.
4 Then all the elders of Israel gathered themselves together, and came to Samuel unto Ramah, 5 and said unto him, Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways: now make us a king to judge us like all the nations.
6 But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the Lord. 7 And the Lord said unto Samuel,
"Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them. 8 According to all the works which they have done since the day that I brought them up out of Egypt even unto this day, wherewith they have forsaken me, and served other gods, so do they also unto thee. 9 Now therefore hearken unto their voice: howbeit yet protest solemnly unto them, and shew them the manner of the king that shall reign over them."
10 And Samuel told all the words of the Lord unto the people that asked of him a king. 11 And he said, This will be the manner of the king that shall reign over you:
He will take your sons, and appoint them for himself, for his chariots, and to be his horsemen; and some shall run before his chariots.
12 And he will appoint him captains over thousands, and captains over fifties; and will set them to ear his ground, and to reap his harvest, and to make his instruments of war, and instruments of his chariots.
13 And he will take your daughters to be confectionaries, and to be cooks, and to be bakers.
14 And he will take your fields, and your vineyards, and your oliveyards, even the best of them, and give them to his servants.
15 And he will take the tenth of your seed, and of your vineyards, and give to his officers, and to his servants.
16 And he will take your menservants, and your maidservants, and your goodliest young men, and your asses, and put them to his work.
17 He will take the tenth of your sheep:
and ye shall be his servants.
18 And ye shall cry out in that day because of your king which ye shall have chosen you;
and the Lord will not hear you in that day.
19 Nevertheless the people refused to obey the voice of Samuel; and they said,
Nay; but we will have a king over us; 20 that we also may be like all the nations; and that our king may judge us, and go out before us, and fight our battles.
21 And Samuel heard all the words of the people, and he rehearsed them in the ears of the Lord. 22 And the Lord said to Samuel,
"Hearken unto their voice, and make them a king."
And Samuel said unto the men of Israel, Go ye every man unto his city.