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Re: HighOnWater hope this one is emotional enough for you.
 
vektek Views: 363
Published: 5 years ago
 
This is a reply to # 2,329,832

Re: HighOnWater hope this one is emotional enough for you.


I'm asking these questions to Rainy, to understand more of her viewpoint on these things, not from my own perspective.

From my own perspective, no one becomes a believer from any kind of "experience" outside of God making them alive in Christ (causing them to be born again). Otherwise they can't see the things of God, no matter what experiences they have. That's why we are told that many walked away even after seeing the miracles Jesus did. That's why in Luke 16 it says people can see someone raised from the dead and they still won't believe. Once God causes someone to be born again, opening their eyes and ears to the truth, then whatever experiences God takes them through can mean something. For those that saw the miracles of Jesus and the apostles and believed when they saw them, it's because God had caused them to be born again so they could see those things were from God. The experiences alone would not have done it. That's how spiritually dead people are before they are made alive, that they could even see someone raised from the dead and still not believe.

Ephesians 2:
4But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved...

Because God causing someone to be born again is what causes them to believe and be able to understand the gospel, and not any other experience they see or feel, all the things such as seeing some supernatural healing, or experiencing hell or heaven, or seeing someone raised from the dead, or experiencing the gift of tongues, or seeing glitter fall from the ceiling, or whatever else, is not necessary.

But experiences in this day and age have become paramount, convincing people they must see these things or feel something, and that's what makes them a believer, and not God doing a supernatural work in them, causing them to be born again so they can understand the simple gospel.

Salvation is of the Lord! And he doesn't have to take someone to hell to convince them. He just has to remove the dead heart of stone and give someone a heart that is alive to Him. Then the simple message of "You are a sinner, in need of the savior Jesus Christ, who lived a perfect sinless life, and was crucified in the place of sinners so they could be justified before a Holy God and live for eternity with Him" will ring true and beautiful and they will bow down and repent and worship the Lord! No trips to hell needed!

1 Corinthians 2:14

The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.

John 3:6
That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

I Cor. 1:18
For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

1 Cor. 1:22
22For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, 24but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

Notice in that last passage, it is talking about two groups, Jews and Greeks. Among those two groups, it says some will believe and some won't. But what is the difference between the Jews and Greeks that believe and the Jews and Greeks that don't believe? The ones that believe are called by God to believe, and it doesn't just mean an outward call that goes out all over the world and falls on many deaf ears. It means an effectual call:

Romans 8:30
30And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

If God called everyone with the same effectual call, that passage would make no sense because it says those he called would also be justified and glorified and also predestined, and we know he doesn't predestine, justify, and glorify everyone unless we decide we are Universalists and believe every person that ever lived will be saved.

But if that all sounds unfair, I have to say that the way you and Rainy believe does too to me. I mean surely going to experience hell (especially a forever torturing hell as y'all believe) would make a big difference for the skeptics if salvation was based on our decisions. Those who got to do that would have a huge advantage, would they not? And we could apply that same thought pattern in countless other directions, like if you grew up Muslim vs. in a loving home where you were taught biblical truth all your life, wouldn't that also be a big advantage? Or if you had twenty years to come to believe vs. a hundred or more. I mean on and on we could go. None of it can be considered "fair" from a human perspective.

But God's ways are higher than our ways.

I'll admit that if I worked all day in the hot sun and got paid the same wages as someone that came at the end of the day and only worked an hour or two, in my human mind, I wouldn't find that fair. But the parable of the workers in Matthew 20:1-16 says the Master has a right to do what he desires with what belongs to him.

So I just better shut up then about what I think is fair. Who am I to question God with injustice?

Romans 14:
14What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means!

19You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

And that last part is referring back to what it says in Romans 8:30 and 1 Cor. 1:22 from up above.












 

 
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