Re: Gift of Healing
We're fools as human beings if we assume to say, 'God has chosen not to heal people any more'. That is human logic based upon the evidence of the eyes and doctrine built up extra-biblically- not upon scriptural foundations.
The awkward point is sorting out what we have been taught to assume is true, and what the scriptures simply and plainly say.
Miraculous healings took place both in the old testament and the new testament. There are similarities in the operation of the Holy Spirit in both eras.
The way the men who manifested those activities lived their lives has changed some, but the principle remains the same,
It is the Father giving a gift of grace through an act of His power via the Holy Spirit indwelt in a believer, and accessible only via the blood of Christ Jesus..
Vertek, there are no shortage of people who have taken a kind act and turned it into a roadside puppetshow of absolute horror.
However, the power of prayer in moving mountains is well documented among hospital staff and workers, who have spent their lives caring for the unwell, infirm, bedridden and those near death.
It's a little sad to see so much argument about doctrine. Doctrine is head knowledge, but an understanding of the Spirit comes out of the point where the rubber meets the road, and a person takes action.
And I see no definitive event which has separated the early church age, from the roman catholic age, from the development of the anglican church and the gutenburg press, and from the holy-rollers of the american Pentecostal movements, or today..?
People get caught up in passion about one form of teaching, and clash up against people who are passionate about another. Understanding comes out of backgrounds, experience, study, practice, refinement and heavens, a whole mess of variables.
I have not found one single denomination of a church that has got every aspect of a life of faith 100% Right, True, and Infallible. The doctrines and thoughts put forewards by one denomination is complimented, contrasted, expounded or refuted by another, and I find.. none of them are perfect in doctrine, but many are excellent in the gifts of the Spirit, in teaching, fellowship, etc.
Healing is painfully undervalued.
... Paul told Timothy to drink wine..
Heheheh.. I bet it was just as plain to Paul's face as it is to us that Timothy was harbouring an addiction and getting too religious about his water fasting. Drinking only water all the time will wipe out a person's electrolytes and water-soluable nutrients. Paul used common sense on the man.
What could would using time on healing Timothy do when it was a correction of an aberrant behaviour that was needed?
That's a matter of discipline.
And healing.. that's a ministry of deliverance and witnessing, isn't it? The core of it is in encouraging a person to draw nearer to God through Jesus' cleansing blood.. It is a reconciliatory act, in as much as a physical, or emotional, or an act of discipleship.
Vertek, I'd point out one thing..
Our churches first and foremost are good at teaching head knowledge, and patterns of behaviour. It's the Father though that does the act of drawing a believer deeper into a right relationship with Him.. and the Holy Spirit has an act in that to the deepest level of a believer's life. That's where it's actually transformative, on all levels, physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually.
Doctrine can be just as much a box as it is a steady foundation for tried, tested and true understandings of the principles of scripture.
The thing about a box, is that it is a limited size, shape and function-
I think that is one of the things that tripped the pharisees and sadducees up royally in their day. Jesus had a different goal with the Scriptures of His day, a completely different point of view and mission, and they really, REALLY freaked out because He stomped on their box!
And I honestly see doctrines as made out of cardboard. They're meant to hold something, but they're of a limited lifespan and are made to function in a specific condition. I'm not going to bring a shoebox to help move a whole shelf of books..
And Ed's not going to bring the tenets of Presbyterianism up when he's talking with someone who's suffering shoulder pain.
Is Ed earning any money from this?
I haven't paid him a single cent. Not a dime.
Has he got any glory from me?
I hope not.
However, I've been present for and personally experienced healing as a result of congregational prayer while my life was on the line during open-chest surgery in the hospital, due to cancer issues. It happens, it's real, get your thumb out of your nostril, It's not meant to go that far up there.
The one thing I find woefully lacking in western churches right up and down the board is a disciplined, biblical, plain understanding of how the realms of the physical and spiritual aspects of the human body work together, and it disturbs me.
I don't know specifically to set something like that to rights, except the one way I've learned how..
Learn, live, grow, and realise what I once thought was the final answer to everything, has aspects I never considered before.
This thread reads like a radio interview.
Quite interesting..
Though it's a little like watching a republican and a democrat debate public spending, there's so many aspects to the subject.. ;)
If I can be a little off the wall here..
Saying the gift of healing is no longer a part of the functions of the body of Christ today is a bit like trying to take the theory of evolution and prove it as scientific fact.
There's plenty of circumstantial evidences to call on, but you'll be forever re-evaluating your theory and stance on the subject.
Weird and unexpected things keep popping up
And historians keep scratching their heads
.. And it makes no sense until it's put
into context (specifically verses 3-7 ).
Allegories.. >.o
One thing Ed does do is challenge the status quo, and I appreciate his efforts right from the get-go for it. I don't speak the same sort of logic and follow his patterns of behaviour.. but that's in part because I'm a different person, with different gifts, thoughts, desires, a different speciality in my skills..
I detest when people end up patterned all to be the same, and that's when you get stagnation in a faithful congregation.
And Vertek, I've seen some amazing posts from you. Thank you for your intelligence and passion for Christ, that is irreplaceable.