It's kinda ironic, innit, that the only ad hominem attacks I've seen in this thread have all come from LITS him/herself, and mainly against Rainy. I hafta wonder if LITS appreciates the subtle distinction between calling out 'another gospel' and a personal attack against its adherent? The two are not the same.
For any Bible-believing Christian, denying Jesus' deity crosses a red line that instantly identifies it as another gospel. The charge is justified on strict Biblical grounds regardless of the person advocating what is basically the old Arian heresy. Modern versions of Arianism, at least as far as the person of Jesus is concerned, include (inter alia) Jehovah's Witnesses, Christadelphians and Unitarians. And yes, they are indeed all cults by any generally accepted definition of the term, whose company LITS apparently prefers.
Again, that's fine. Free will affords LITS that choice. Personally, I'm with the Bible and Athanasius on this one. And so are 100% of the only church that really matters - the universal, invisible church militant known only to God, and which is independent of all denominational affiliations. As Athanasius himself once said, 'Jesus, who I know as my Redeemer, cannot be less than God.'
To which I can only add: 'amen'.
Thank you for your participation Steve and this is a general response to everybody.
Only one person pre-emptively initiated the ad hominem personal attacks (20 of them in one post to be more specific) and this was Rainy. This simple truth is clearly documented within this thread and anybody who invents a different version of this story the way Loquat has done is gas lighting, lying, deceiving, seeking to trick and bewitch, behaving dishonorably and otherwise not Living in the Spirit, and is following after the wicked ways of the devil who is the father of all lies.
Notice if you are able that this comment is in reference to the 20 verifiable ad hominem personal attacks and has nothing to do with what anybody believes doctrinally which is a personal free will choice to which everybody is entitled.
Once the Pharisees - based upon Jesus not agreeing with all of their religious Dogma - rudely and wickedly violated the healthy boundaries of kindness and respect which Lord Jesus to that point had been fully upholding, they forfeited their right to being treated with respect and only then did He give them a taste of their own medicine including correctly referring to these wicked institutionalized religious zealots as hypocrites, brood of vipers, blind guides, and children of their father the devil.
Similarly and in parallel, once Rainy - based upon me not agreeing with her Catholic originated religious Dogma - rudely and wickedly violated the healthy boundaries of kindness and respect which to that point i had been fully upholding, she forfeited her right to being treated with respect and only after she initiated these ad hominem personal attacks did i begin to speak her language and give her a taste of her own medicine just as Lord Jesus had done in response to that which His religious pharisee adversaries had initiated. In both cases, it is vitally important to recognize which party pre-emptively initiated the rude and disrespectful personal attacks and to understand the significance of this.
My consistent and entirely accurate and verifiable claim has always been that Rainy is the one who pre-emptively initiated the personal attacks. If i am the one who is supposedly gas lighting as Rainy has so deceitfully suggested, then let anybody simply demonstrate within a single comment that preceded Rainy's 20 personal attack post that Rainy was not the one who pre-emptively initiated the rude and disrespectful ad hominem personal attacks. In reality and in truth, nobody with an ounce of honesty is able to do this, because the verifiable evidence undeniably demonstrates that it simply is not so.
If i was the pot calling the kettle black, then this would have to mean that i was the one who pre-emptively attacked Rainy with ad hominem's which is simply and demonstrably not the case. The religious pharisees initiated the personal attacks against Lord Jesus and He responded with accurate personal attacks of His own - which He never would have done had those religious pharisees not first treated Him as an enemy with such hostility, religious arrogance and immense disrespect by initiating these personal attacks against Him -. Similarly, in this thread Rainy was undeniably and verifiably the initiator of the personal attacks just as was true with the pharisees.
Is anybody able without gas lighting, lying, bewitching - or simply diverting from what has verifiably been written here - to refute with actual tangible evidence a single point i have made in this post?
Another tangential point here is that various people have been enabling Rainy's bad behavior in this thread because they have been unable to separate their agreement with Rainy's Catholic originated dogma from Her hostile and angry emotionally driven personally attacking bad behavior which is an entirely separate issue from whatever Catholic originated Dogma these individuals agree with Rainy and the Catholic church upon.
Please note that i am not saying that agreeing with Catholic Dogma - however false or true or partially false or partially true it may be - is in itself bad behavior per se, nor am i saying that it is bad behavior or personally abusive to believe whatever doctrinal opinions one comes to embrace, whether in alignment with Catholic originated dogma or otherwise. Just because the Catholic church was powerful enough to punish those who dared to seek God apart from their forced Dogma, this does not mean it was actually bad behavior to not agree with that institution.
In contrastt to the strong arm tactics of the Catholic church and its protestant derivatives, i actually encourage people to seek God and living relationship with Him for themselves without preconceiving that popularized opinions and/or Dogma within institutionalized religion - or any teachings from anybody - are automatically trustworthy and that it is vitally important to pray for discernment and to discern everything before the Living God for ourselves and not automatically trust any man-taught teaching without sincere seeking. Everybody needs to meet the Living God for themselves and to have their own Living Relationship with this Heavenly Father who speaks into the hearts of His children. Forced institutionalized religion and misplaced blind trust in this system is in direct opposition to the Holy Spirit teaching each follower of Lord Jesus to hear God for themselves. If people sincerely seek God and come to believe in and trust in Catholic originated Dogma without being bullied into it, then it would be surprising but so be it.
If such individuals don't seek to violate decent and respectful human behavior by initiating pre-emptive personal attacks based upon differing doctrinal opinions, then i will absolutely extend the same courtesy and respect to them just as i overwhelmingly believe Lord Jesus would do. If they want to dialogue about it respectfully, then i will be happy to hear why they believe in Catholic originated dogma, the ways in which they support this position, and to share why i don't believe in various aspects of it and why. This is the way healthy and mutually kind and respectful, fruitful Christlike dialogue works and is nowhere near the same as using such hellion tactics as pre-emptive hostility, anger and ad hominem personal attacks to try to manipulate, bully and force anybody to believe as someone and their version of institutionalized religion does.
Once Rainy diverted from the topic at hand which was the discussion of whether or not the institutionalized religious system's bible is the 100% God breathed book they proclaim it to be... into her deplorable, hostile and hell inspired pre-emptive personal attacks... then her abusive ad hominem attacks and my challenge against this bad behavior is what this thread primarily transitioned into. In reality, the topic of why someone believes in a 100% God breathed bible, their perceived evidences for this... and their reasons for believing that God at one time apparently supported slavery and rape never actually got discussed because Rainy derailed the topic of the thread with herhostile and abusive pre-emptive personal attacks.
I believe it is only Cults such as Catholicism and Islam (which are the greatest and most murderous brainwashing cults of all time) as well as mainstream Protestantism, jehovas witness, etc - and their twice the sons of hell prosthelytes - that force their dogmatic beliefs on others and initiate hostile and manipulative personal attacks against those who dare to seek God and His truth apart from their Dogma. Each of these controlling, manipulating, intimidating and dominating brainwashing religious cults have modeled and promoted truly horrific hellish behavior amongst their twice the sons of hell prosthelytes.
I would dare say that if everything had been reversed, if Rainy had been the one sincerely seeking God's truth in love through prayer, fasting and using actual non institutionalized Holy Spirit discernment - apart from placing so much trust in and dependency upon Catholic originated Dogma - and if i had been the one conforming to this Dogma which the false catholic church forced upon the populace literally with the threat of torture and/or death by burning at the stake to any and all non-conformists (also propagandistically referred to as heretics or another way of stating it, those sincere seekers of God who wanted to seek Him apart from Catholic control and domination), then as a supporter and propagator of Catholic Dogma, as a twice the son of hell zealot of this religious system, i would have been able to pre-emptively initiate 20 personal attacks against Rainy and these enablers would have been defending my actions and would have set their hearts against her and gaslit a version of a story that would have minimized and justified these pre-emptive personal attacks and they would have reversed in their counterfeit version of reality which individual had actually pre-emptively initiated these personal hostilities.
In other words, this thread provides an excellent example of the blind hypocrisy for which institutionalized religious zealots are so infamous and which Lord Jesus was consistently contending against as that religious system, it's dogma, its leaders and its twice the sons of hell prosthelytes sought to derail His Holy Spirit filled and led ministry at every opportunity. Another example of counterfeit religion derailing true Holy Spirit ministry is the Catholic and Protestant institutionalized church system pharisee emulators (and Jehovah's witness and islam, etc) and their twice the sons of hell prosthelytes.
What all of these double sons of hell have in common is that they are followers of institutionalized religion and its Dogma and actually followers of hell and its ways, as opposed to being followers of Lord Jesus and His own teachings, filled with and led by His Holy Spirit. Instead of helping to spread the love of God and God's truth which is a lot different from the Dogma, hostility, and domination tactics of institutionalized religion, they are working in direct opposition against the Living God and seeking to derail His will and His work at every opportunity.
They have traded their actual Living Holy Spirit discernment away (if they ever had it in the first place which is indeed debatable) in favor of misplacing their trust in popularized institutionalized religion such as pharisaism, Catholicism, Protestantism, Jehova's witness, Islam, etc... and the accompanying institutionalized religious system Dogma and it's hostility-filled ways of domination-based religious indoctrination that despises the living God and His Holy Spirit as well as the individual's free will to seek God's truth for themselves.
Wishing everybody the best including Rainy and Loquat and i am sincerely hoping to help people to see what Lord Jesus saw and that which institutionalized religion seeks to hide... which is that this counterfeit institutionalized religious system and the hateful, bullying and abusive behavior it has always promoted and propagated amongst its zealous religious conformist prosthelytes truly is wicked and of hell.
If any have eyes to see, please Heavenly Father let them see. God bless.
Tansy: Living in the spirit thanks for your pm regarding Rainy but I think in this instance it is better to discuss her in the debate forum rather than in private as it is her that you have accused of attacking you and I don't feel comfortable about debating this in a pm, it is much better on an open forum when the pm is concerning someone else where the matter is being discussed.
Ed: In the hopes of bringing clarity since i'm pretty sure people might get the wrong idea from what you have written here, the following is what i said to you in the pm as a response to your public question from about 10 days ago wanting me to detail what additional personal attacks were made by Rainy: "Hi Tansy, Since Rainy apologized for her behavior, i don't want to continue challenging her on what she did, most especially not publicly which is why i am responding to you in private" Next pertinent comment: "If you are sincerely interested in wanting to learn from this experience and if you feel that knowing specifically what i consider to be Rainy's additional personal attacks and that this would be helpful to you and fruitful i would be willing to share."
I was just responding to your public question as a courtesy and in such a way that would hopefully not keep the issue stirred up in the public forum after Rainy apologized. Since you hadn't responded to this pm of about 10 days ago, i never did clarify to you what additional personal attacks Rainy had made. I wasn't going to do so without first being convinced that you were sincere in wanting to know the truth and that you were sincere in genuinely wanting to learn something. So far and unfortunately i don't feel that this has been the case. Also i was not interested in debating anything with you in pm either, which is why i wasn't intending to answer your question unless or until i sensed sincerity from you as well as a willingness to be unbiased and fair minded which also to this point has not been the case.
Tansy: I really don't want to pm about someone who I believe has more than proved herself on this topic. It is time to move on...
Ed: You didn't want to pm, but you did want to continue discussing it publicly even after she apologized which is something i did not want to do. Also, since Rainy has resumed her personal hostilities, i will say here that your on going exceedingly biased belief that the initiator of the personal attacks has proven herself is noted.
Tansy: No offence meant but I never asked you to contact me and you did even though I hardly know you and I know from past experiences...
Ed: I have only ever looked upon pm's as another natural form of communication among human beings and nothing taboo, but since you are expressing for the very first time that you don't want to receive a pm from me, then quite simply you won't and all you had to do was to say at any point that this was what you wanted. I know it took 6 months for you to address this and i know you chose to handle this private concern publicly which to be honest i believe you have ulterior motives for doing, but I am happy that you finally clarified your wishes so that at least i now know what they are. Just so you know this isn't rare, i have also communicated in pm with Rainy, Refreshed, Vektek, Trapper, Doc, Tomi, Loquat and several others from this site in pm over the months or years.
Tansy: I did give you the courtesy of answering you six months ago when you contacted me about someone else from the debate forum which was totally unexpected...
Ed: 6 months ago, you were in the midst of a public feud with someone, you seemed to be hurting and i was willing to hear your perspective and help you to work through it as one aspect of being a child of God. My goal is only ever for the two people to resolve differences and/or misunderstandings wherever possible which whether you realize this or not, this is also my hope in my own situation with Rainy and Loquat. But generally before a conflict can be resolved in any authentic and enduring way, the true cause needs to be recognized, acknowledged and turned from. In this case the pre-emptive personal attacks have always been the cause and then the resurgence of these pre-emptive personal attacks after the person who initiated them in the first place apologized but then resumed the attacks.
Please understand that i genuinely don't expect to convince you of anything Tansy and i already know which side you have chosen regardless of who is guilty of pre-empting the personal attacks... and i already know why.. Much of what i could say is already outlined in this recent post here: https://www.curezone.org/forums/fm.asp?i=2424371#i . Just responding publicly to your private matters made public and which i think through your wording could very easily have given people the wrong idea.