Rainy: Ha, ha! I have no way of knowing if Mike Bickle is a real lover of Jesus or if he is a fake. I have no way of knowing what Jesus will say to him on that day.
Ed: Well now rainy, you did insinuate that Mike Bickle was a false teacher and that i shouldn't say anything good about him or about ihop lest i lead sheep to the slaughter. If you want to be responsible with your words, then you should at least back your accusations against people with evidence, unless you want to model vektek's illustrious example. When you meet your maker at the rewards judgement, maybe He will ask you why you came down so hard against Mike Bickle and ihop to deter people from their influence. What will you say?
Do you feel that those who seek deepened intimate relationship with the Lord Jesus would benefit from the 5 Mike Bickle videos i posted above, or that this goal would be set back instead?
Ed: to follow, more detailed responses to your previous message:
Rainy: I agree with you that the gifts of the Spirit are for today etc., but we cannot just assume that every minister who operates in the gifts and appears to the world of Christianity that he has correct theology is someone we should sit under, learn from, or follow.
Ed: If all of Mike's videos are based in biblical teaching and are edifying to a person, that he has great insights that can help people deeply, why are you deterring people from watching them? Could it be that it is from the cessationistic anti ihop peer pressure?
Rainy: Many people are very hungry for God. When they think that a minister has some special in to God they will flock to the minister and seek after the minister instead of to diligently seek after God for themselves. Seeking after God to that extent is a work that some are just too lazy to do. It's just much easier to follow someone who they feel has a special anointing from God hoping that they will receive from God through a man.
Ed: While i certainly agree that followers of the Lord Jesus should seek Him and the Father directly and passionately also, when Lord Jesus said, go and make disciples, do you feel that Mike Bickle was exempted from this? Why should people not seek discipleship from Mike Bickle or others who are more mature in Christ than themselves? If what you say is true, why should people go to any church at all to learn from any pastor or ever ask another believer more mature than themselves a question? Why are you singling out Mike Bickle as one to avoid? Those who are as you say lazy, might be helped by someone like Mike Bickle or another mature believer to become more passionate for the Lord. When we disciple others and do it correctly, we are not leading them into deepened intimate relationship with ourselves, or continued dependency upon us, but we are wishing for them to have this with Lord Jesus. Rainy, please don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. The concept of discipleship taught and commanded by Lord Jesus is an excellent idea. The Holy Spirit in a more mature believer is able to teach a less mature believer.
Rainy: Running a 24 hour prayer room sounds very appealing and spiritual. Just because someone runs a 24 hour prayer room, operates in the gifts etc. does not mean that we should promote this minister.
Ed: And nor does it mean that we should steer people away from this minister.
Rainy: The minister, himself, may not even be saved. The Bible tells us that many will come in His name and Jesus will turn them away saying, "Depart from Me for I never knew you." They will tell Jesus of all the wonderful things that they did in His name thinking that the manifestations of the gifts of the Spirit in their lives was some kind of proof of their own salvation.
Ed: While i acknowledge that gifts alone do not guarantee acceptance from my Lord Jesus and that loving Him with all our heart, mind, soul and strength is what matters most, Mike bickle does not present himself to me as being "manifestations and gifts centric", rather he seems to be "passion for Lord Jesus in deep intimate loving relationship centric". Why would you insinuate that the "go away from me i never knew you" teaching of our Lord would apply to Mike? Any particular reasons?
Rainy: I agree with you that cessationism is a false teaching. but many who are not cessationists are leading people astray as well. Let's face it this is also a strong delusion.
Ed: Cessationism is a strong delusion comparable to the anti-Holy Spirit delusion the pharisees were under. "Gifts and God's living voice is for today" is not a strong delusion and is in itself completely true. Now within both models there are other individualized delusions, sure, and all of these should be contended against without throwing out the baby with the dirty bathwater. I have always opposed for example "toke the ghost" and "sloshfest". if you believe i run with every teaching that comes out of the correct foundational model, you have drawn a false conclusion about me.
Rainy: Ed, I am concerned about Mike Bickle and Ihop because of the many people who have come out of it warning others of the group. I have heard of these warnings long before Vektek started warning us. I believe that these stories must be true because of the commonality of them.
Ed: Have you ever seen courtroom shows on reality tv where one side speaks and you are sure they must be right? then you hear the other side and suddenly you are not so sure any more? How many of the positive testimonies of people's experiences at ihop have you heard to balance out the warnings of people who have visited there and left unhappy? The vast majority of the students seem to be very happy which is why they stay. Everyone is free to leave whenever they want.
Also, the organization is fairly large and it would be impossible for Mike Bickle to control every detail. There are leaders in various positions even down to dorm leaders who Mike can not continually supervise. If some of these other people are less mature in Christ than mike and do things that are not in alignment with His heart, is it reasonable to hold this against Mike and ihop as a whole? Report the perpetrators abuses and let them be dealt with. I see Mike as one who would correct such abuses as they come to his attention.
rainy: I have no problem listening to great worship music that they may have.
Ed: that's refreshing to hear.
rainy: I do have a problem with promoting them if it is just set up to suck people dry.
ed: again, what do you base this perspective on exactly?
rainy: They may have correct theology that they are parading in front of people in order to get people hooked, but that does not mean that they are really working for Jesus.
ed: would this not then be true for every church on the entire planet? How can you discern which leaders are working for Lord Jesus and which are working for satan?
Rainy: Ihop really does sound like a cult to me because of the control that they have over the people. This is the Nicolaitan error that Jesus spoke of that He hated.
Ed: i posted a new video at the top to address this point.
Rainy: Vektek is good in spotting things that are not right. We should learn from that.
Ed: her motive has always been to embarrass the "gifts and God's living voice is for today" model in her zeal to promote cessationism. Has nobody else been able to see through this? Anybody can spot obvious sensationalistic errors. Has she ever once posted an error or moral failure of a cessationist church or leader?
Rainy: The problem I have with Vektek is that she throws the truth out with the dirt just because of all the dirt satan has wrapped around the truth. Satan does not want people to know the truth.
Ed: agree
Rainy: Mike Bickle is going to only say good and appealing things about the group on camera in order to attract people.
Ed: How do you arrive upon this conclusion? is this any more true for Mike bickle than for any other church leader on the planet?
Rainy: He is smart enough to keep quiet about what is going on that is not of God.
Ed: actually, i see him opposing that which is not of God and encouraging Spirit behavior including repenting publicly of public prophesies made that turned out to be false. You seem to be judging his heart very deeply with very little balanced information to go from.
Rainy: If it were not for all these warning stories of people, I would probably think that he is great too. There are just too many stories for me to not consider them.
Ed: i believe they have something like 2000 students. If every year 5 out of 2000 had major complaints, why are you ignoring the other 1995? Everybody is different and everybody has varying levels of fleshiness and demonic oppression as well as varying levels of maturity in Christ. 2000 different people can perceive and discern the very same events quite differently. Will you automatically believe the perspective of the 5 and automatically dismiss the perspectives of the 1995 others?
Rainy: Ed, do not be lead astray by wolves just because they are not cessationists. You do not want to be in that group.
Ed: i will continue to not be deceived by the wolves and i hope that you will begin to use more wisdom and discernment in the conclusions you draw about entire models based on relatively few negative reports.