Blog: Plant Your Dream!
by YourEnchantedGardener

My neighbors do not want Arundo mulch in Arosa Canyon

My neighbors do not want Arundo mulch in Arosa Canyon.
They are concerned about resprouting. I am still spending time
as of November 18, 2011 looking deeper into this and will suggest
alternatives to managing the Arundo Donax (Giant Reed).

Date:   10/28/2011 10:23:52 PM   ( 6 y ) ... viewed 2345 times

6:44 am
October 30
After the Shift Day Two

Resolving the future of the cut Arundo Donax (Giant Reed) is basic and essential now here.

Photos will be posted of work we did.
I had further communication with neighbors i will discuss here


O.K. L, M, D and B
I will make sure that no Arundo mulch goes on your property or D Property.

8:23 pm
October 28, 2011

Thanks for your consideration and looking at the research. After a number of great meetings with Sylvia including a phone call, I had a sense that she and the Fire Department would allow the mulching idea, however, Sylvia wants to do what you want done. She will have to speak for herself.

My sense is that we need to come up with a plan the involves both Sylvia and other neighbors. I am going to focus on my own property Saturday October 29-30, so I can meet the wish of Sylvia.

This was one photo from Camp Pendleton that showed the one little arundo coming back on an entire hillside which could then be removed by hand. Look at the photo below.

I am going ahead with shredding stuff from our property and some Arundo Donax (Giant Reed). that we already cut and is dead this is the stuff that is close to our house, not the canyon rim. I will not return any of this mulch to the canyon on your property or D's property per his request.

Like I researched, Camp Pendleton showed that it Arundo makes a good mulch, and that there is little change of it spreading.


1. While very small stem and root fragments can germinate under laboratory conditions, in the field very few actually do.
2. The numbers of resprouts are so few and small that pesticides are not needed for their control and they can easily be collected by hand.

pp 64-78


My own plans will always be respectful and considerate of my neighbors, and I appreciate very much having the organic garden space at the edge of the canyon.

I would like to save you money with the Arundo Donax Clean up by taking the steps to work with Sylvia and the City Fire Department.

The other alternative is for you D to go to the expense of having it cut and hauled out and that is your decision. I will work with you all anyway you want.


I also want to point out that according the excerpts from Arundo: A Landowner Handbook - Developed By Team Arundo Del Norte
Success rate: Foliar application has been found to be 50% effective the first year and 75% effective the second year and may take 3 to 5 years for complete eradication. Effectiveness depends on the herbicide mixture used, weather conditions, the time of year, and the amount of leaf coverage.

(See info below...)


Composting: If you have the space and don’t mind the sight of a mound of Arundo canes, just let them sit and rot in place. The canes decompose very slowly. This method is ideal for remote areas. Make sure the pile is stacked above the high water line and out of temptation’s way. A passerby may discover that the canes make great spears and throw them back into the creek.

Chipping: The canes can be chipped on site, out of the creek, with a brush or tree chipper. It can then be hauled and dumped or mulched on site. Arundo is fibrous and can get caught in the cutting blades of lightweight chippers. It will chip better when dry and brittle. A chipper may not be practical in areas that are difficult to access.

Dumping: Hauling and dumping large volumes of Arundo cuttings is time-consuming and can be expensive. Many cities and some counties have programs for pick-up of yard waste. Some disposal companies and dumps do not accept Arundo because it can be difficult to chip. Dumping is appropriate when other options are unavailable or when a dumpster is donated for a general creek cleanup event and the Arundo gets “cleaned up” too.

How Dead is Dead? Arundo rhizomes can dry out for over six months and still start growing vigorously whenever they come in contact with moisture. Cut Arundo stems will usually not sprout unless in contact with water or moist soil. Canes that have been cut and stacked for over one month are generally dead. Stem sections require two nodes to reproduce because leaves and roots will not both grow from the same node. (Nodes are the joint-like rings around the stem.) Therefore, small pieces of stem with no nodes or only one node pose no risk of spreading Arundo.


One of the main reasons why I was willing to invest so much time in all this, and it has been considerable, is because from the beginning, I was willing to manage the stands of Arundo because I knew that the prevailing method is to use Round Up, Glysophate. The increasing bad news is that this is dangerous to humans (carcinogenic), as well as bad for soil, and potentially bad for animal life in our canyon. Our canyon, even though privately owned is the equivalent of a nature preserve.

I am personally very concerned for my health and the health of the neighborhood and canyon fertility if this method of eradication is chosen.

There is an entire group in Ojai that organized a Presticide Free Zone group because the city was spraying Round Up.

I reposted that on my blog here:


information from the ventura county watershed protection district states: “three methods are being used to remove and control giant reed. each has been chosen for safety and efficacy.” the three methods are: shredding the plants, spraying an approved herbicide onto the foliage of the target plants, and painting the herbicide on cut plants.
the safety and efficacy of the herbicide has been questioned or denied by some observers.
“glyphosate is what’s being used, which is generic roundup, that’s what’s going in the water,” said robin bernhoft, an ojai medical doctor with a specialty in the effects of toxic chemicals on human health.
“it’s dangerous stuff. the linkage to parkinson’s disease and non-hodgkin’s lymphoma and leukemia has come up over and over again, in this country and in europe and in japan. i don’t think people should use it at all because it does get into the water.”
according to many widely accepted studies, glyphosate is a safe herbicide.
according to monsanto, producers of glyphosate herbicides including roundup, the chemical presents a “low risk to human health.”
“that’s what monsanto says. monsanto has had a number of problems with the truth in the past,” said bernhoft. “the evidence from the groundwater in north dakota and denmark is that it does not in fact break down and it does in fact get into the ground water.”


Cut, Reprout and Spray (Foliar Herbicide Application)
The technique: This method requires removal of the canes, allowing the roots to re-sprout, and following up with foliar sprays.

Equipment needs: (See Cut Only, above, for cutting equipment.) Cutting the canes can be done by hand or power tools depending on the size of infestation. Very large stands of pure Arundo can be removed by experienced contractors with heavy machinery such as flail mowers. (See Herbicide Usage and Handling for spraying equipment.)

Personnel requirements: A single person or a group can use this method, depending on the size of infestation. Use of power tools requires more space and therefore limits the number of workers in a given area. One person trained in the use and handling of herbicides is needed to spray (see Requirements for Herbicide Applicators).

Timing: The best time to cut Arundo to force resprouting is during the spring and summer. The cutting should occur early in the growing season to allow time for resprouting in the same year. Follow-up spray should be scheduled when regrowth is still small and easy to reach, approximately two months after cutting. Foliar spray can be effective throughout Arundo’s growing season, but fall is optimal.

Side-effects: The greatest risk when spraying standing Arundo is the potential for spraying desirable vegetation, particularly if there is wind. To reduce over-spray, tarps can be used to cover desirable vegetation, or willows and other plants that can resprout can be trimmed back. Large equipment can substantially disrupt the soil and damage desirable species and habitat.

Cost: For very large infestations, experienced crews using flail mowers can be costeffective. For smaller infestations, Cut, Resprout, and Spray using hand tools may also use the least amount of materials. However, the labor for multiple follow-up sprays increases the costs.

Success rate: Foliar application has been found to be 50% effective the first year and 75% effective the second year and may take 3 to 5 years for complete eradication. Effectiveness depends on the herbicide mixture used, weather conditions, the time of year, and the amount of leaf coverage.

Appropriate use: This method can be used in most situations where Arundo is not mixed with desirable vegetation. Waiting for resprouts after cutting can be impractical when working in remote areas.

Root Removal
The technique: This method involves digging up the roots and hauling roots and canes out of the creekbed for disposal.

Equipment needs: Shovels and picks for small infestations. If hand digging, the work is easier if you first cut and remove the canes, then address the roots. A backhoe or excavator and grapple can be used for large colonies. In this case, the stems do not have to be cut off first. In fact, the stems can help pull up the rhizome mass intact. Excavating in the streambed is generally not recommended and may require a Streambed Alteration Agreement from the California Department of Fish and Game or a permit from the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers (see Who to Contact).

Personnel requirements: A single person or a group can use this method, depending on the size of the infestation.

Timing: Digging Arundo can be done at any time of the year. Rain and high water may limit access and reduce bank stability in the wet season.

Side-effects: Digging the roots up disturbs the soil and causes erosion. The soils in the creekbed become vulnerable to being washed away. Roots that were missed or cut during digging are more likely to be uprooted during a high water event and deposited downstream, spreading the infestation. On the other hand, since no herbicide is used, there is no possibility of soil or water contamination and no accidental damage to desirable plants nearby.

Cost: The financial cost is minimal if performing the work yourself. The physical effort of digging it out by hand is great. Hiring a heavy equipment operator to do this work can be costly, especially since this method is slow and access can be difficult. Also, regrading and replanting the disturbed area can add to the cost significantly (See Revegetation).

Success rate: Reports are mixed. Canes will resprout from rhizomes that were missed, or were buried more deeply than the digging. The cost, soil disturbance, and equipment access problems make it an unpopular choice.

Appropriate use: When roots are exposed from erosion and vulnerable to washing downstream, it is appropriate to remove them. It is also acceptable to dig out Arundo roots when the clump is small, on the upper bank and on stable ground.

Removal and Disposal of Arundo Debris
Removing Arundo canes from the immediate work-site is a chore in itself on some sites. A choke chain or rope can be used to tie a bundle of canes before they are cut to prevent them from falling in the creek and to facilitate removal. A winch or a vehicle can be used to pull large bundles up steep slopes. Rope or twine can be used to bundle cut canes to ease hand removal. A tarp can be used to gather up smaller pieces and drag them to a disposal area.
When using a group of volunteers, forming a chain to hand off

I will be busy with a conference after Sunday through November 8. My next time that I will have a shredder is November 11-12. Wishing you the best with the clean up.

There is more and more information coming out about how harmful it is to use Round Up and Glysophate to human life (carcinogenic), and to plants and animals. We all love this canyon as a nature preserve and want the best for it.

Thanks for being a good neighbor and for staying in touch about your needs and desires.


On Oct 28, 2011, at 5:46 PM, D wrote

After reading Sylvia's e-mail and discussing the arundo issue with my wife, we have decided that we do not want the mulched arundo spread into the canyon on our side as well. If you want to use it on your property, so be it but please do not mulch it in place on our property. And I understand you have researched this but we want to comply with the Fire Department and they want it out. So, we're going to make sure it is out. Like I said, I don't want to repeat this in a few years. If this interferes with your plans, we are sorry about that and we will take care of the arundo ourselves.


5000 cubic feet of Arundo Mulch was spread. One little plant came back.

On Oct 28, 2011, at 4:53 PM, L wrote:

We have thought long and hard about this project, and while we understand your concerns, we do not want the arundi spread on our property at all. Even though your research states the neglible return of the arundi, we are not willing to take that chance. We are sorry if this interferes with your plans.


From: Leslie Goldman
To: "Sowadski, Sylvia"
Cc: De and B; M & L; Chris Sanda; Brian
Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011 4:47 PM

This is the original email I received from Sylvia on October 23, 2011

On Oct 24, 2011, at 7:00 PM, Sowadski, Sylvia wrote:

Hi Leslie,

I wanted to confirm with you that the neighboring property owners would prefer that under the circumstances of preserving the wildlife and the natural vegetated habitat that any machine chipped or mulched Arundo not be placed back onto the open space canyon area.

Considering that the native is on the neighboring property owner’s parcel up to your property that this request be respectfully honored for fear that it may sprout and be difficult to maintain and interfere with the natural vegetation in the future.

In reference to the Brush Management from the Fire Department I will enforce that you not spread the chipped or mulched Arundo in the open space canyon preserve area nor near it and be disposed of. We must concentrate on completing the Brush Management project as a priority.

Thank you for your understanding and cooperation.


I have since researched the concerns that are very important, spoken with Dave Cammall, owner of the stands of Arundo Donax (Giant Reed) bordering our property at 6008 Arosa St. I have researched this issue and found that only in rare circumstances has mulched Arondo Donax (Giant Reed) sprouted. See photos and science report on this Plant Your Dream Blog.


A few weeks ago, we cut down the Arundo Donax stand closest to my house, about ten feet away for the house. It has been drying out and most of it is dead now.

My recommendation is to proceed Saturday, to mulch this arundo donax close to our house, and spread in on my property.; then mulch other piles and cutting from my property and that of Chris Freeman, my neighbor to the West. Then if there is manpower and time,I recommend beginning to cut to cut more of the stand of the Arunda Donax on Dave Cammall's property bordering our canyon. An amount of this was already cut September 11 and is now mulch on my property. There is no sign of resprouting; although weeds of grass have grown up since between the Arundo that has been mixed with other species of mulched plant limbs.

I will mulch the pile that was cut more than a week ago and drying out. If manpower permits, after our piles of cut limbs of different varieties are mulched and spread on our property, I will begin to cut the large stand bordering the canyon and begin to mulch this. I want to leave this in a pile and not return it to the canyon at this time.

I want to give it time to dry out. Research indicates that only in rare instances has Arundo Donax resprouted. I will leave what we cut in a pile until November 11-12 when next we will have another clean up day with the shredder. At that time, with the consent of Dave Cammall and other property owners, I would suggest that we return this to the canyon. I have included below some of the research conclusions that are on the link above.



Good talking to you and Dave this morning, Thursday, October 27, 2011.

I did extensive research last night on the question of can mulched A. Donax (Giant Reed) sprout?

The science behind this tested in the field at Camp Pendleton suggests it is very rare that anything like that can happen. Putting back Mulched A. Donax mulched rarely sprouts. These are the scientific conclusions:

Plant Your Dream Blog

I am moving forward with Brush management on our property this weekend and appreciated very much your doing a walk around with us on October 20. Your generosity of spirit and support for the overall vision and plan I have for the property here was heartwarming and inspiring. I am just back from the Bright Green Future Conference and received more powerful information leading me to want to pursue and research the positive uses of Arundo Donax and assist in educating the FIre Prevention Bureau, City of San DIego Fire Department, MIramar Greenery, landfill, and Parks departments everywhere about the progress you are helping us make.

My latest success was getting a go ahead from Dave Cammall, the owner of our Arundo Stands for us to be responsible for managing these stands of Arundo. This makes most sense since they adjoin our property. I am already setting in motion beginning action to cut down the Arundo Donax this weekend, and awaiting a return call from Dave regarding how much financial support we can have to use Fletcher Morgan and others I will hire for this part of the project.


Here are two reports and the conclusions:
Site Restoration

A. donax was mechanically removed from a 25-ha site 11 km from the river mouth during fall 1999/winter 2000. A small-scale restoration experiment was carried out in January 2001 within 30 5x5-m plots to test the effect of mulching on survival of cuttings planted to revegetate the site. Fifteen plots were covered with a 25 cm thick layer of mulch consisting of chipped A. donax ranging from 1-15 cm in length. Because stem and root fragments of A. donax rarely sprout when spread at this depth (Lawson and Smead 2001), we chose it as the mulch material.

Can Mulched Arundo Donax Sprout?

1. While very small stem and root fragments can germinate under laboratory conditions, in the field very few actually do.
2. The numbers of resprouts are so few and small that pesticides are not needed for their control and they can easily be collected by hand.
3. Even though resprouts are few, they do occur and so arundo mulch is only recommended on sites where follow-up monitoring is planned.

The key here is monitoring and management. I will see that is done.

I will have a plan of management that I go over with Dave.
The main thing is, that by the end of November, we have the stand cut down
to satisfy Sylvia's needs. We will continue to work with the Arundo Donax reeds and rhizomes through November. This will require funds, some that need to come from Dave Cammall.

I am scheduled to rent the big shredder chipper again for this weekend. I need more helpers.

Chris my neighbor to the West, Fletcher Morgan, arborist, and one housemate are scheduled, and a few helpers. We could use more helpers for October 29-30.

I will have more time to work with getting helpers by the next shredding opportunity, November 11-12.


I am working to build up the team who will help with our property Brush clearing.


Other remarkable events regarding the Brush Management project in recent weeks involve not only having Fletcher trim our enormous palm tree, but then having the local Jewish community send over a two-man team to further take away an immense amount of palm fronds for use on the holiday of Sukkot, an eight day holiday where the Jewish people are asked to eat in huts outdoors. Some of our palm fronds went to neighboring Jewish families and we were paid by the synagogue for our palm fronds!!!!
This will be a nearly management event. We will cut down our palm fronds every year around this time and send them over to the Jewish Synagogue and neighbors. How perfect!


The quality of community building that can come out of this project are immense at a time when we all need to learn to be in direct communication among neighbors and work side by side in every way possible, including giving financial support to make sure we get this Brush Management Project done as fast as possible.


I appreciate your recognition that you saw how immense the job is on our property and in the canyon. I want to help in every way possible to make sure that this project is done in a most respectful manner honoring the wishes and needs of our neighbors as well as the profound potential of our Arosa Canyon Preserve that is already a wildlife sanctuary and home to many native species.


The Fire Prevention Bureau, you personally, and the CIty of San Diego Fire department are to be thanked for looking out for all of us and pointing us in the right direction. You are a gifted employee of the City of San DIego and deserve great acknowledgement for your care and outstanding support of residents. I will be submitting your name for an award for the Very Important Planet Reception next year held at the Environment Services Center.

Before long, I will bring the work we are doing together here before the local group that gives info to the City Council and I will be bringing the positive work we are doing together here to the attention of Marty Emerald, our council person as well as the press when it is time. Marty favors good growing in our district.

Let's continue to step forward with grace and resourcefulness on this project.


I have already been blogging on the Overgrowth cleanup and put up the little video where you honored me with your words of praise.

See Sylvia here on this Plant Your Dream Blog


It is imperative that all the concerns of neighbors concerning the Canyon Brush Managment be addressed including any concerns about possible risk that Arundo Donax could possible sprout if the mulch was returned at ground level.

The above science suggests, with this not be a big concern.

However, please note that it is the opinion of Brian Everette, co-owner of my property, and a skilled arborist, that the addition of Arundo at ground level over roots, would
slow down the regrowth process. His experience and science background tells me that the chipped Arundo will not sprout; however, this is a very important research question that needs to be taken to the nearby science and ag departments such as Cuyamaca College where they have an ag training program.


I am already doing experiments in pots that will aim to demonstrate how the Arundo can be killed with various natural solutions.


I believe there is a considerable difference between mulching the dead reeds of the Arundo and the roots themselves.

I believe research and the expertise of nurserymen will confirm that it is safe to mulch Arundo; however, it is best to exercise restraint until
we have more confirmation that it is safe to mulch the dead reeds that have no life in them.


Roots we dig up will be disposed of at this time to the landfill.

I do not believe that the roots should be mulched and spread out until more research is done.


I sense there is a powerful growth factor in the the root system that makes this one of the fastest growing plants in the world.

I will engage in other experiments and record keeping where I will mulch some of the roots and put them in pots to see if this mulch can indeed sprout.


Some of the roots by my plan of action will remain in the ground and these will be managed with natural means such as using a chain saw periodically to cut them very low to prevent the possibility of fire.


The prevailing approach is to use Round Up and other Glysophate products to kill the roots of Arundo.

Even Parks that are leading toward minimal use of herbides are using Round Up.

Any research we can add to help pinpoint other ways to manage Arundo is important at this time when the increasing awareness is that Round Up is a carcinogen,
i.e, a hazardous waste.

"Ojai-based physician Robin Bernhoft said studies show that spraying of glyphosates has been linked to leukemia and myeloma."


“They sprayed somewhere between 12 and 15 times and it didn’t kill the arundo,” Bernhoft said, noting that an alternative of cutting the arundo and laying plastic over its roots was more effective at eliminating the hardy tall bamboo-like grass. “The Roundup would knock it down, but then it would grow right back. I’ve got a problem dumping toxic stuff like that, especially when it doesn’t kill the alleged visitor.”


It kills the microbes.

Leslie speaks to Paul Moska of the Seeds of City Program. He is a former employee of the San Diego Zoo. He now heads up with others the San Diego City College Seeds of City program. He spoke to me about the damaging effects of Arundo on the soil. Joe Rodriguez Jr of JR organics tells me itg takes eight years to building up pest free soil. Is killing our microbial life here with Round Up or other Gylsophate products the way to go in a time when we face extreme soil depletion?

It hurts the health of the soil

Another Blow to Monsanto: Roundup Pesticide Linked to Serious Soil Damage
"Glyphosate, the key ingredient in Monsanto’s Roundup pesticide, is being linked to damaged soil and roots of treated plants, finds 15 years of study, according to a representative from the USDA."


“Three recent studies show that Roundup, which is used by farmers and home gardeners, is not the safe product we have been led to trust,” stated the article by Chee Yoke Heong. The article cites scientific studies in which Roundup was implicated in mortality in amphibians and cancer and liver damage in animals.


Create a break..

Use black plastic.

Keep it chainsawed down.

Strong vinegar

Others we can kill using natural means.

One of my allies is Bill Tall of the organic City Farmers' Nursery.

I am going to enlist his consultation on this, and call in other experts that know far more than I on this subject.

As far as potential positive uses of Arundo, these lie outside the immediate need which is to do the Brush Management as a high priority.

It is important that we continue to move forward in a way \ that does not stress the neighbors who are already overwhelmed by this daunting task, and potential of extreme financial outlay of funds at a time funds for such a clean up are perhaps limited.

I also want to point out that although Arundo is considered an invasive species, when managed property it could be a remarkable source of income for our city and the Fire Department itself.

In Georgia they are already exploring the use of Arundo as a Biofuel crop.



Discusses Arundo donax (Adx) for biofuel and other uses: its nutrient stripping and bioremediation

Please note that where Round Up is notes as one possible way to exterminate the root system, other means are noted through. Also, note how a mechanical break kept the crop from expanding to other areas.


Amazing info about the values of Arundo as a Biofuel source and its non invasive nature if managed properly.

OF OCTOBER 25, 2011

This is fine, Sylvia. I agree that we not return the arundo Donax to the canyon area or near it to make sure that it does not sprout. You have my cooperation and understanding.

I realize that this is a learning process, and that is a very good research question to ask; Can chips of Arundo Donax that are mulched, sprout?
It was initially the understanding of the Miramar Greenery that Arundo Donax could not go through a shredder and was waste. We have shown that it can go through a large shredder, saving land fill space. If it continues to prove itself a good source of mulch this could provide very valuable information to the parks department in our city and other cities.


We will keep the chips of Arundo Donax separate from the other mulched materials, and experiment with using it in our front yard and specifically in places where we can monitor the results. We will not put it near the canyon area as you are requesting.

Our experience over five years of breaking down Arundo on our property is that it composted and turned to soil when we broke it into pieces. We never saw it sprout.

I did spread some Arundo Donax mixed in with other chipped materials around our orange trees at the front of our property. and will use more on our other trees where it will be carefully monitored. It will be good to see after six months or so if any sprouting is possible. I personally do not believe it is possible for these chips to sprout, however, it is important that we exercise caution and work together on this.

I have other questions about the roots themselves, and would want to do further research on these.

I have put some of these roots into containers and will let them grow under supervision. I will then kill some of the roots with natural procedures.

We will also concentrate on completing the Brush Management project as a priority.

Thank you very much for visiting our property and doing a walk around. It was very helpful and a joy to meet you. It is a wonderful opportunity to work
with you and the FIre Prevention Bureau.

That you for helping us all prevent fire.

Since, you visited we completed more of our trimming, and will do more shedding this weekend. We have made considerable progress since August, and look forward to the completion of this work.


What exactly do you mean by this sentence?

and be disposed of.

Are you O.K. with my plant of Action as stated above?

Best Wishes and thanks,
all rights reserved.


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