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My 120-day fast on vegan urine/water (later will add green juice)...
by jerksforthesedentary

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  • pH/night-time urine - more thoughts   by  jerksforthesedentary     15 y     2,770       9 Messages Shown       Blog: My 120-day fast on vegan urine/water (later will add green j
    My urine just tested 4.5, as it's steadily been at all times of day - however, another of my brilliant ideas yesterday was to start testing my saliva pH - yesterday afternoon it was 6.4, roughly, and this morning it's 6.0. Whilst this is no means good (I wonder if it'll go up or down as I go along evey day with the urine) and does not change the fact that I'm on a steady diet of nothing but 4.5 liquid (distilled water is about the same), it does make me feel better - so my tissue pH isn't 4.5 after all, as I feared. That _really_ would have been unhealthy, and asking for trouble. This way, it doesn't seem to be much different from usual, at least. I hope it improves, though!

    It just occurred to me - maybe night-time urine was particularly concentrated because by 3.30 a.m. it had been over 6 hours since I'd had liquids - maybe I was just dehydrated - I tend to get dehydrated at nights on fasts, perhaps from extra cleansing going on - on the other hand, I just "poured" myself a glass of fresh 9.30 urine and it is rather the same, even though in the past 6 hours I've had about a pint of liquid - maybe this is just a phase of concentrated urine, after all. Perhaps that is good We really don't know much about urine fasting, do we? The only stff we really hear about, about it, is the 75-year-old book of Armstrong, who is wrong about everything else. Reminds me of trying to live by the then 75-year-old books of Ehret, as I did when fruitarian - Ehret now generally believed by raw-foodists to be one huge mistake, even when they pay superficial smarm to him.
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    • Arnold Ehret   by  #48222     15 y     1,089
      Would you be so kind as to explain your concluding comment?
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      • Re: Arnold Ehret   by  jerksforthesedentary     15 y     1,420
        Absolutely - nothing kind about it - and can you maybe in return answer the question to you posted on Fruitarians Support forum? Believe me, I bought wholly into Ehret in the early mid-90s days of raw-foodism, when nothing else was around anyway and I had no Internet. I'd so very much like to have even a hint of evidence, even anecdotal, it's worth trying all-fruit again (actually, Ehret _speaks_ of leafy grees and fruit, which may indeed be just fine - somehow I interpreted him to _really_ be promoting all-fruit, all juicy fruit - anyway, that is what I did). But I gather you wish explanation for saying that today's raw-foodists, both lay and "professional guru", think Ehretone big dangerous mistake? Is that what you sought clarification on? I can certainly explain. Also, do a simple websearch for something like "raw "too much sugar"" or "raw "too much fruit"" and you might come up with several raw-food "experts" against the Ehretian ideal. The current wave in raw-foodist thinking is slanted towards the Cousens-alkalarian line - I by no means like Cousens, but the iteratue on overgrowth of microforms and the importance of mineralized raw foods is rather impressive and not easy to refute.I know of no-one, personally or by reputation, who is a living example of refuting that a frugivorous diet is not optimal. I've tried mightily to refute it. I've tried mightily to refute that a frugivorous diet is unhealthy, and have not been able to do so, from myself, or anyone I know or know of. We are naturally dubious of "health prophets" who die young - some like Shelton and Krok and Fry (and other old-time fruitarian writers) don't actually eat the way they preach, but Sapoty Brook, an apostate from the lame if game Fruitarian Network, notes in his book that it's interesting that Ehret died at 56 from an accident Brook feels would not have been fatal if his bones had had any minerls in them - food for thought. In anyevent, I'm not sure what your objection is to the comment on raw-foodists lamenting the Ehret line - if you ask the majorty of today's raw-foodists, they will come down strongly against the promotion of Ehretism - that seems to be well-known. Some of them will stress the high-sugar, low-mineral side, some will stress the high-mycotoxicity and thus acidity-promoting side, and some may still be speaking of low-protein and nutritional deficiency of variouus kinds. On rawfoodsupport.com forum, sometimes people will ask advice about whether to follow an Ehretian style dietary, and will basically find no-one there (real people, really raw-foodists) promoting it or claiming it's been healthy for them, let alone near optimal and rejuvenative and healing. From an ethical point of view and a spiritual one, I don't want to kill plants. They are living organisms, and any time I try to justify killing them for my food, I literally sound exactly like people who justify killing animals sothey can eat them. Exactly the same things they say. That's scary, and it troubles me, and I don't like it one bit. Thus, for me to follow and recommend frugivory, I would not need it to be _the healthiest_ dietary to follow, but the press, my own experience, and real people's real experience (both those who follow it and those who used to), condemn it as markedly anti-healthy. Now, I hate Tom Billings as much as any fruitarian! but youwill not find the people who have reallyhad success with their raw diets, genuinely followed year by year, the people who have met with other long-term raw-foodists, not dissing 100% frugivory _as an actual practice_, not dissuading people from the adoption of it. Are you not aware of this? It is common raw-food knowledge. The raw-foodists today are into greens and fighting Y/F overgrowth and acidity/mycotoxicity. Some are even into supplements! Now, does that mean that they know what is right, what will work, for _you_? Or me? Or any individual? No. I would not say you are wrong to follow Ehret, it may work for you and in any case in some respects mistakes have to be made by the individual, and experience gained empirically. If you have success, I certainly would like, and need, to hear about it. But it's not a controversial statement, or news, to say that modern raw-foodists lament Ehretist teaching on diet as a mistake, and a pernicious one. When the fruitarian forum here, or elsewhere all over the Web, picks up with glowing, euphoric, high-vibe frugivores sharing their epiphanies and transformations, Ehret will no doubt be revenged on the current swing on the pendulum.
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        • Re: Raw Food Militia   by  #48222     15 y     1,179

          I was in no way irritated by your anti-Ehret comment; I was merely intrigued as to your own point of view in regards to fruitarianism and, to be more precise, the "Mucusless Diet Healing System."

          I generally ignore "raw-foodists," as they all seem to display the same will to decadence; lavish, over-indulgent foods interest me not one jot.

          I was curious as to whether or not I would learn some new "factual" evidence of an all-fruit diet being harmful to the human organism, but it appears not. The proponents of unnecessarily complicated salad dishes and "puddings" made of frozen bananas and cacao nibs can forever mock the true diet of man; I care not.

          I apologize for missing your question on the fruitarian forum. I have not viewed either forum for some time, ever since reading of one member's comments in regards to fruit having no minerals! Some arguments are just so ridiculous that it is best to wander off instead of allowing oneself to rise to the bait. I shall view the forums now and look for your question...I shall hopefully have an answer or two for you in due course.

          A diet is an extremely personal necessity and I would be a happy bunny indeed were others to realise that what works for one may not work for another. Fruitarianism is my Golden Dawn - I have never felt better and could never have imagined this was possible. However, I am on no crusade and others are free to do and eat as they please.

          Relax, Jack, I am just like you: curious, experimental and forever seeking truth.

          Take care,


          Lee.

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          • Re: Raw Food Militia   by  jerksforthesedentary     15 y     1,192
            I'm exceedingly interested in hearing of your Golden Dawn - as you may know, I'm much thinking about how to eat post-fast, and one of my goals in doing this, this long and "radically", is in hopes that if the Y/F/acidity/mycotoxicity picture is in fact correct, as it seems to be for me, this long sugar-free fast will set up my biological terrain to be able to thrive on frug, as I wasn't ever before. In fact, as I fast, the fresh high-water simplicity of an ahimsa dietary - well, it's the most appealing of all those I turn over in my mind as I'm fasting, the other options seeming too unlive or heavy. I really hope that my terrain can afterwards frug with impunity, and that doing so supports and enhances whatever results - ahem - I accrue on the fast.

            Nice to hear from a real 100%-er and hoping you'll keep me informed - one has searched for such on the web, and they either turn out to no longer be doing it, to look disgusting and be obviously brain-cell-eviscerated, or to, in the case of one, consider themselves 100% fruit whilst still using commercial salad dressing from a bottle on their avocadoes.

            Besides the ethical aspect, the simplicity aspect, the "natural" aspect of frug is appealing - no tools, machines - real desert island stuff. I certainly wasn't weighing in on the side of "combo-abombos" with salt and dried this and dried that. I don't even have the patience for juicing, and the "recipes" full of fat and condiment and whatever the latest raw "miracle treat" being pushed that Cousens, Wolfe, and the raw vendors shamelessly go for, that resturants offer, are immediately rejected by one's body as abuse. Nothing makes me fall off the raw wagon quicker than having just eaten something like that and suffered from it.

            So it's not that I admire the militia - far from it - they make me feel highly uncomfortable, so that I doubt even what seems to make sense that they say. For me at this stage, the chlorophyll high-mineral (organic mineral) alkaline thing seems to make sense, based on my own terrain, but I'm bound to say it hasn't brought any results, either - why I'm here today doing this, dude. I've found that to be untrue as much as mucuslessness. I agree that there's a woeful lack of evidence _really_ supporting the militia's claims, and the answer repeatedly comes down to: each rawfoodist must work his/her own salvation. I warrant that no-one can go wrong with a simple dietary of fresh whole fruits and greens and minimal overt fats. I even have to learn to get my mind around the concept that one raw path can work for someone in one phase of his/her life, and then the body says to switch to another raw path, which works then. A difficult idea for me, but it seems like a good one. The idea being to be enough in touch with the body that you can hear it talking louder than your mind talking. All-fruit dietary is good for that. It hands the reins over to that non-mental voice most of us never know what it's like to hear or follow.

            Ehretism appealed to my basic dietary asceticism (although one comes to intensely appreciate that favorite fruit), and the decadence of many of the raw-foodists, particularly those who sell the cacao nibs, is certainly a sign that one is not, won't be, on the same wavelength as what they think, feel, say, or promte and advise(I was mono-, of course). Certainly I've never fallen nearly so devoutly for any of the later raw-foodists' line as I did for the mucusless one. One is still in the dark. Hopefully, I will emerge from the fast with a keener sense of what is authentic and good for me and true to my nature, as well as the physical health and stamina to implement and honor it - if that is the case, I won't have to seek guidance from anywhere else, even rawfoodists who have been high on sprouting and algae for 20 years and can't say enough for the power of hemp oil, pollen, maca, and dried goji. It won't even be an issue. I should also perhaps note that one of the things I am hoping for from urine per se is that UT would make frug healthy and sustainable for me, effectively dealing with any imbalances and overgrowths fruit or fruit-sugar might otherwise end up causing. Also that UT would enforce the knowledge of whether something was individually right for one, and help it to be right for one. If UTcan in fact combat cataracts and polio or whatever (which I've no proof of at the moment), I should think t would be able to correct any problems that might otherwise arise in frugivory. But perhaps not - perhaps one would be, by drinking frug urine, intaking yet more "sugar"?

            Time and again, I've started frug again, thinking just as you say: that it's a personal call that neiher Ehret nor the newer capitalists can make for one; and that frug's what I'm dietarily called to. But it hasn't worked out - and did I ever used to follow the mantra, "It's not unhealth, it's detox"! Whilst I think the mycotoxicity-acidity paradigm is a key for me, I'm also rather repelled by the heavy cellulose and fat and contaminated water dietaries actually recommended to replace any fruit. Many say they eat no sweet fruit at all now - if that's true, I'm not sure it's so great. It could be. It could be unnecessarily joyless and digestively burdensome and unclear, impure. As for the "raw" free-for-all, as I say, whilst it's very laid-back and tolerant and refreshing and has a kind of ideological attractiveness of its own as far as that goes, I just can't do it for more than a day. Physically and psychologically impossible, it has seemed for me. (That too could change post-fast.)

            The forums can really push one easily to a point where one feels one's "health" demands ceasing to read them. Sometimes one can get a good vibe from posts, and sometimes one can be appalled and upset and it's like, who needs this. You have to decide which is more the case, and if it's the latter, "health" demands that you give it up or at least cut back radically. This is true of all sorts of web forums. On CureZone, probably some forums are inherently more frustrating than others. During this fast, at first I assiduously checked all the fasting forums, but I've been finding, for instance, that the fasting-for-weight-loss forum, where people never talk about any result from a fast but pounds and inches and sizes and fantasize about "fried chicken" when they are done fasting, actually wasn't helping me, and I admit I felt overwhelmed by the thought of helping them. A fault, I know, but there's some truth to protecting oneself from psychic vampirism and bad "negative energy", and opting for self-prioritizing peace, whether fasting or not. And sometimes just conflict and controversy, whether ignorant or dogmatic or just not true for _you_, just gets too much and isn't worth it and is a waste of time, especially if you've found a place or an ideology/practice where you are happy and healthy and you have knowledge in your bones. Fruit-naysaying still irks even me, and even I have little patience with it. Everbody _seems_ to be just guessing, or looking at it misinformed or askew, or dogmatic, and one wants to do frug just to not folow them. Walk away by all means.

            That said, in recent years, I've lost any fondness for fruit, too sweet for me. I don't know if that's because I ignored it as a devout Ehretist, the aversion to sweetness, or because in the intervening years I've had so much green stuff which I prefer to sweet, or because by now it's been so long since I've had white sugar that I used to be less sensitive to sweetness than now. I'm quite curious whether after a long fast, fruit that was too sweet will seem _fabulous_ (as I think it might, now as I sit here dehydrated), or will in fact in my new hoped-for purity seem all the sickly-sweeter and inedible. The recent-years too-sweetness has been one of the handful of stumbling blocks to my fruitarianism.
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            • Re: Awaiting liberation...   by  #48222     15 y     1,179
              My “Golden Dawn” is the revelation(s) that hope brought. Having suffered all of my life from crippling ailments and fears, my recent accumulation of natural healing protocols, correct foods, etc., have allowed me to turn my back on imminent death…at least, that is how it feels. I am, admittedly, still unsure of many things and very much remain “messed up” from the misery of my past but I do feel as if I have awakened to something that will result in my salvation. As religious as this all may sound, I am not…

              The raw food movement is just that, a movement; it is no more appealing to me than the latest fashions, pop music or tastes in women. There is nothing “natural” about profiting from the sale of false advertising and hype (plus, I find freezing fruits in order to make desserts utterly absurd - just as in nature, of course).

              I found this statement of yours interesting: “…one raw path can work for someone in one phase of his/her life, and then the body says to switch to another raw path, which works then…” - exactly! I feel that fruitarianism is perfect for my body at this specific juncture; whether or not my dietary requirements will change remains to be seen, but for now my body, mind and spirit is crying out for fruit, fruit, fruit (and fasting). The raw food movement is a breeding ground for false prophets, each claiming that their lifestyle is the only perfect choice. It amuses me a little as each “guru” is simply seeking individuality; modifying an already tried-and-tested healing diet and attempting to call it his/her own. Elitism pervades all things.

              It seems as if you are fasting for all the right reasons; indeed, it makes me wonder why I stopped my fast only a few days ago. Fasting is even more joyous than eating of fruit, so I have to wonder why I do not fast more often…perhaps I am not yet ready… A prolonged/extended fast will surely reveal more to you about your body than any book, article or forum comment will, and I sincerely wish you well. I hope, myself, to fast for at least fourteen days relatively soon, after a course of three liver flushes and a super-dose of parasite herbs. Purity of blood is my ultimate conquest, and removal of diseased tissue comes a close second. As for the fasting forums, I do believe that fasting is an incredibly personal experience and I doubt I would wish to document or discuss my fast at any great length. These forums seem to exist as a sort of “blog” for a number of people, which is all fair and well I suppose but I would much rather read of interesting discussion and theory than any diary. I find reading books to be infinitely more rewarding, especially regarding fasting as it fascinates me like nothing else on this earth; plus, one needs inspiration and motivation from time to time, andfor this, books (especially of the older variety) can prove indispensable. I am eagerly awaiting delivery of the “Freedom You” book, which I hope lives up to expectations…

              I, too, wonder how the taste buds will react after an extended fast. If, as is claimed, the taste buds are reinvigorated then I can hardly imagine how utterly divine a pineapple, papaya or pomegranate will taste! Even discussing fasting for a few moments inspires me to begin again. I have a good deal of fresh, organic oranges here, so there is no reason for me not to. I may begin tomorrow…

              I have rambled on enough, for now. I visited the fruitarian forums (support and debate) and took the time to answer a few questions (to the best of my ability) so I would hope that your own queries were responded to in a suitable manner. If not, be sure to let me know of the post in question and I shall remedy the failing as soon I can.

              All the best to you on your current fast; I shall make sure I read your blog when I am able to do so and may again interrupt with an obscure observation/query once more, providing you do not mind.

              (You may well have already visited this site, but if not, it does hold an interesting article or two which may well inspire you when times are tough: http://www.freedomyou.com/)
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              • Re: Seeking salvation....   by  jerksforthesedentary     15 y     1,123
                That's funny - your Fruitarian forum post and this Liberation message make me feel like calling off the fast and switching to 100% fruit immediately. Nor does raising the spectre of thos fresh, organic oranges help dermination much. But I think I'll hang in there somewhat longer - I'll chant the lord's prayer backwards and maybe you'll wake up and decide to fast along after all. If you're inspired to fast one-hundredth of how inspiring you are about fruit, one has returned 1/100 of the favor.

                I'll write the rest of this reply tomorrow, sort of ready to veg out now, if you'll pardon the botany.

                Jack
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              • Re: Awaiting liberation...   by  jerksforthesedentary     15 y     1,305
                So as I was saying, I can't wait to get off this fast and start frug again, now. I've felt countless times the repugnance you describe about the raw huckster scene, and the denatured eating involved, and the magnetic force of all-fruit, but as any times as I've tried it since I actually was fruitarian, I've given it up for the reasons indicated. It'll be great if the fast leaves me ready for it. Some anti-fruitists say we are just to toxic now to be all-fruit, and I've never liked that line, but perhaps this fast will purify me sufficiently.

                You're pretty much where I was when I was fruitarian and all-fruit was genuinely my profound, heart-breakingly tears-of-relief salvation, and "purity" was the watchword. How it was the watchword! I find nothing terribly suspicious about that psychologically, but at the same time, I think it's a pschologically and physically pertinent concept when one has suffered so much from crippling ailments of body and spirit, lived with, indeed in, imminent death. The hope of fruitarianism for me only ever lasted three months, but there was a kind of hope embodied just in being in all-fruit, so far away and safe from the on-fruit life. Verily, as Wittgenstein says, the world of all-fruit is different from the world of fruit and I never wanted to go back to that other world of pain and death. Every day I regret with remorse and anguish having done so, for the worst foreboding could not have been more ferociously cruel than the reality has been, in ways I never even dreamt of suspecting it could be. All the worst someone could have foretold - and so, so, so much more. More destruction than, and of such a kind, I could ever have conceived then, the day I decided to "suspend" my frugivory (merely incidentally, it was after a visit to a doctor to pacify my mother's haranguing about my fruitarianism, even though I felt fine, happy, and sharper than I had in years).

                I think you should fast, too! You don't have to say much, since you think that kind of comme il ne faut - I gather you must disapprove of my weblog, but I disagree with you, speaking for my own experience, about books being better than forums and 'blogs. The fact is a lot of those old people lied, if not more than the new hucksters about their "walk", then just as much. It's easy to write, difficult to live. I no longer think anyone inspiring who doesn't actally do what he/she is writing about, however well they write. Nor am I inspired by "good writers" of inspirational fastin or food books who look like crap or die young or who think speciously and fuzzily. I think for me it's much better to read people who are actually out there right now fasting, or doing all fruit (as you are). You are of immeasurably more value than Essie Honibal or Johnny Lovewisdom or any of those people. That just seems obvious to me. But it's equally obvious that we must feel comfortable with the medium through which we get our inspiration, and books are a different medium on many levels than the internet. And it's crucial - a highl individual matter - to get one's inspiratio from whatever gives one inspiration; in something quite intense, delicate, loaded, and in a sense rather lonely and marginalized, intensely personal and individual and psychical and devotional and urgent and transformative and re-organizational as all-fruit, the important thing is to do it, whatever gets you to do it. It doesn't really matter how. And avoid the things that threaten that.

                As for fasting, I've done reams of fasting reading in the literature, both tree and e-, including the excellent FreedomYou site and book, and I have started and gone off fasts as many times as I've read them. I don't believe I've ever done a non-juice fast for this long, and I believe that it's been in using this site that I've finally been able to stop droppng off (um - so far). I'd call the FreedomYou stuff inspiring and motivating - yes, to start a fast, and you'd definitely think to go through with one as well, but for me that has never been the case. I'd prefer to just be very personal and unpublic and do it from books, and I've tried that for over the past decade, but for me it's never actually worked in reality. There comes a point when the important thing is not to be inspired to do a fast, but to do it! In the autumn I even paid almost $800 to this abomination called Dennis Paulson from fasting.com, a juice-fasting "support service", and bailed out immediately, throwing away all that money that was about half of my monthly income - that was because Paulson is up there with the most noxious, stupid, ignorant, rude, insane people you will ever encouter, and it's a cinch no faster needs that kind of stress, odium, aggressiveness, filth and insanity on his/her fast, which is meant to be joyous and if it isn't is stressful enough without that. So I just left - but, wow, some of those testimonials are the most inspiring things you could _ever_ read in relation to fasting.

                I don't mind at all your questions/observations; they are welcome. What I mind is the people who are sort of mean - it's not helpful to a faster, can be quite upsetting, and after all they can walk away from me much easier than I can walk away from what they say to me.The pros and cons of forums!

                As for false advertising and hype, I admit to bing for the intervening years since being frug a desperate victim of this appalling state of affairs. The thousands of dollars in search of some modicum of health and abatement of suffering and pain, rescue from my evil, loveless, hopeless life, that I've spent on algae of all kinds in all formats, maca, angstrom minerals, water Vitalizers, processed goji juice, tachyon (!!), juicers, probiotics, supplements, superfoods, colon cleanses, oxygen, royal jelly, whatever the latest thing they are hyping has been, could have bought a house many times over, I think - paid-in-full. I still can't - I just - can't - believe - the false advertising and hype - it boggles my mind - why, it just isn't _true_ what they say. That alone makes oe lean towards a very simple honorable dietary. (By the way, I'm still enough of an Ehretist to have subterranean misgivings about plant (like lettuce!) toxicity, but still enough into the whole microform movement to wonder how "pure" it is for me to implement a dietary on which molds and fungi thrive, something Ehret and indeed "Doug Graham" never address.)



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