*Warning* Toxins/Hazard of Pickling Lime (and a novel of thoughts) +title edit
Forum: Supplements Debate Forum
Below is data regarding the substantial amount of toxins found in food grade pickling lime (which is added to water to create lime water)…pickling lime is chemically known as calcium hydroxide. Pickling lime is/has been recommended quite frequently on Curezone as an ingredient to daily ‘alkalizing drinks’ to help achieve a state of alkalinity.
Lead, Fluoride, Aluminum, Arsenic, Insoluble Acids, Heavy Metals, Crystalline Silica.
Calcium hydroxide (also known as hydrated lime) is produced from the slow addition of water to crushed or ground quicklime (calcium oxide), which is produced by burning various forms of limestone. It is found in varying ‘grades’; the information below deals only with food grade pickling lime.
The Food Chemicals Codex (FCC) is a publication that sets limits on the amounts of toxins allowed to be in any product for human consumption and is basically ‘the bible’ for the FDA and EPA. This book is available for sale in the 500.00 price range. Of course, it is copyrighted, and so one cannot easily find data from the FCC on the Internet.
However, with a bit of diligent surfing, I was able to find the FCC information regarding calcium hydroxide and calcium oxide on a couple of different websites (one being a company that makes/sells calcium hydroxide; the other a site devoted to salt-water aquariums).
(similar FCC information regarding food grade calcium hydroxide can be found here):
The following are the chemicals, rocks, metals, and toxins you can expect to be ingesting if you are drinking alkalinizing drinks created with pickling lime/calcium hydroxide:
Food Grade Calcium Hydroxide Specifications
Assay Ca(OH)2…….95 – 100.5%
Magnesium and Alkali Salts…….Less than 4.8%
Fluoride…….eLess than 50 ppm
Lead Less than 10 ppm
Arsenic…….Less than 3 ppm
Acid Insoluble Substances…….Less than 0.5%
Heavy Metals…….Less than 30 ppm
Food Grade Calcium Oxide Specifications
Assay CaO……..95 – 100.5%
Loss on Ignition…….Less than 10%
Magnesium and Alkali Salts…….Less than 3.6%
Fluoride…….Less than 150 ppm
Lead…….Less than 5 ppm
Arsenic…….Less than 3 ppm
Acid Insoluble Substances…….Less than 1%
Heavy Metals…….Less than 30 ppm
The above tables are the FCC limits/regulations; the table below shows what was actually found in ‘typical’ batches of food grade calcium oxide & calcium hydroxide.
TYPICAL PHYSICAL ANALYSIS CALCIUM HYDROXIDE
-100 Mesh (dry basis)…….99.5%
Median Particle Size…….6 Micron
Sedigraph BET Surface Area……. 24 m2/g
-200 Mesh (dry basis) …….98.5%
Carbonate……. Passes Test
-325 Mesh (dry basis)……. 98.0%
Viscosity……. 2000 cps
Assay Ca(OH)2 …….95 - 100.5%
Magnesium & Alkali Salts …….Less than 4.8%
Fluoride…….Less than 50 ppm
Lead……. Less than 10 ppm
Arsenic……. Less than 3 ppm
Acid Insoluble Substances……. Less than 0.5%
Heavy Metals……. Less than 30 ppm
TYPICAL CHEMICAL ANALYSIS
Ca(OH)2- Total 98.25%
Crystalline Silica <0.1%
Ca(OH)2- Available 96.75%
Sulfur - Equivalent 0.012%
Typical Chemical Analysis of Food Grade Calcium Oxide
Loss on Ignition…….0.50%
Magnesium & Alkali Salts…….1.0%
Arsenic……. <1.0 ppm
Acid Insoluble Substances…….0.20%
Heavy Metals…….2 ppm
Fe (Iron)……. 0.04%
P (Phosphorus)…….50 ppm
Mn (Manganese)…….12 ppm
Toxins in calcium hydroxide (well, those that I can clearly see – as I don’t ‘read chemistry speak’ all that well):
Lead, Fluoride, Aluminum, Arsenic, Insoluble Acids, Heavy Metals, Crystalline Silica.
Here is a link to the Material Safety Data Sheet for undiluted pickling lime/calcium hydroxide; the information below the link is taken from that MSDS. (
Route(s) of Entry:
Absorption Through Skin? YES
Ingestion (swallowing)? - YES
Health Hazards: Acute - Corrosive to skin and eyes. Causes irritation and inflammation to mucous membrane and respiratory passages.
Signs and Symptoms of Exposure:
Irritation of skin, eyes, and respiratory tract.
Medical Conditions Generally Aggravated by Exposure:
Respiratory disease, skin condition.
Emergency and First Aid Procedures:
Remove to fresh air. Wash dust with soap and water. Flush out eyes with generous amounts of water. Drink plenty of water if swallowed. See Physician.
Steps to Be Taken in Case Material is Released or Spilled:
-Normal clean-up procedures.
-Care should be taken to avoid causing dust to become airborne.
- Vacuum cleaning systems are recommended.
Waste Disposal Method:
-Dispose of product in accordance with Federal, State and Local regulations.
Precautions to Be Taken in Handling:
-Store away from water and acids.
-Dust filter mask is recommended as minimal protection
-Local Exhaust – To maintain TLV and PEL
Mechanical – To maintain TLV and PEL
Protective Gloves – Cloth or leather gloves will protect skin
Eye Protection – Fitted goggles will reduce eye injury
Other Protective Clothing – Long sleeve shirts and pants
Work / Hygienic Practices – Maintain dust exposure limits below TLV and PEL. If not possible – use respiratory protection
---end of technical data---
Below are my notes, observations & thoughts on the use of pickling lime, alkalizing drinks and alkalizing our bodies:
Obviously this combination of toxins (along with this type of governmental safety recommendations) cannot go hand in hand with any type of natural/holistic healing, even if the result of ingesting these chemicals, heavy metals & toxins create a temporary ‘alkaline reading’ on a pH test strip. The main alkalizer here is obviously calcium, and calcium is plentiful in a variety of easily digested & assimilated healthy fruits & vegetables, nuts, molasses, seeds & sprouts (and from NON-pasteurized dairy products…but remember, calcium is TAKEN from the body’s mineral reserves when pasteurized dairy products are consumed, as the body needs the enzymes found in the raw milk for the digestive process – and those necessary enzymes were killed in the pasteurization process causing the body to have to utilize it’s reserves of minerals to create the digestive enzymes necessary to deal with ‘dead dairy’). There is also calcium present in soy products, but since it’s virtually impossible to find non-GMO soy products (and because my research shows any benefit of soy can easily be found in more easily assimilated foods), I have not included it in my notes.
Danger! Danger! *Crystalline Silica* Danger! Danger!
Crystalline Silica is basically finely ground glass…and it WILL/DOES cut into soft human flesh…causing bleeding, then swelling, and then scar tissue. When ingested by breathing, one can effectively inflame & scar the lungs to the point of death; when ingested orally in can harm every vital organ that it cuts into…ending up in the kidneys (if it gets that far) to cause permanent harm and permanent scarring.
My husband and I are lapidary artists (we cut & grind rocks into various shapes & ‘gems’ for use by jewelry designers, collectors, and metaphysical healers and ‘heal-ees’. We are extremely aware of the very serious (sometimes permanent) damage that can happen to our bodies when ingesting even small amounts of various types of finely ground rocks. These fine particles can be absorbed through the skin and the lungs no matter how careful one is, but to intentionally drink them is certainly not something we would recommend for healing the body. There is never any need to ingest harmful or toxic substances to create health. Just as with supplements, “it’s not how much you take, it’s how much your body absorbs.”…and with ground rocks, you can be assured that your body is spending FAR more time & energy detoxing and cleansing them out of your system (or trying to), than it is gaining any benefit. And that is not healing; in fact, it’s the exact opposite of healing.
So then, in light of the major amounts of extremely toxic substances in pickling lime, one just HAS to ask: why in the WORLD when you do a Curezone search on (“pickling lime”,”lime water”), do you end up with over 100 hits, with most of them being positive in nature? Well, that’s a VERY long story/explanation, but it can be summed up fairly well with not too much trouble:
Prerequisite: the person/people making the recommendations did not do adequate research before making recommendations, or they had an agenda other than health in mind.
#1. As humans, we have a tendency to believe that something is ‘true’ if it’s stated ‘loudly’, forcefully, enthusiastically, and with some other type of truth attached to it…especially when we don’t have the time to research it fully, and/or it makes sense, and/or if we trust the person who is stating it.
#2. As humans, we really want to help our fellow man, so we repeat what we think we know is true.
#3. As humans, we have a tendency to believe that something is ‘true’ if a lot of people agree with it or are saying the same thing.
#4. It’s a heckuva lot easier to let other people tell us what is true & good for us, than it is to work & research and find the truth for ourselves. AND that IS what we’re most used to doing. (For years, probably decades, most of us truly believed we should look to M.D.s and the allopathic world for truthful answers to the questions we have about health & medicine). So when we start our journey/pathway into holistic health and healing, we do the same thing…look to some other person or authority to give us the truth. Both M.D.’s AND holistic healers/naturopaths and teachers ARE human, and the same forces affect them equally…desire to be ‘right’; desire to be respected; human ego; need for money/profit; need for self-esteem…all these things can come before the ‘truth’.
Example: Almost the entire population of Germany believed that Hitler was telling the truth when he said that the Jewish population –and the people/countries he wanted to invade & conquer- were a source of evil and the cause of Germany’s (and the world’s) problems. First he said it loudly, forcefully and extremely enthusiastically, mixing it with other information and data that WAS true…Germany WAS in trouble; inflation was outrageous, society as they knew it WAS crumbling and falling apart around them. He had them nodding their heads in agreement about very serious issues that affected each and every person in Germany, and when he slipped in the lie about what the cause of it all was, they were so busy agreeing with all the other truths (and being thankful that someone was finally addressing the problems and doing something about them), that the lie just slipped right passed them…and ultimately it became part of a ‘truth’ they really knew and believed. AND before Hitler put his ‘propaganda machine’ into ‘high gear’ to gain the support of the population of Germany, he had all of his opposition murdered. This ensured there was no one left to come against/challenge his ‘truth (or had the courage to do so publicly). This event is known in history as The Night of the Long Knives.
**!!** The above example doe NOT mean I’m saying that people that have recommend thatpickling lime be ingested as part of an alkalizing drink have an evil agenda like Hitler did. **!!**
But it does mean that we humans have a very bad habit of letting other people do our thinking for us…especially if ‘other people’s thinking’ ends up being far easier to utilize and apply than doing a lot of research and reading on our own… written by those whose truths are NOT so desirable, comfortable or easy to accomplish.
Achieving alkalinity IS the ultimate key to glowing perfect health. But the process is not as simple a drinking a glass or two of alkalizing mineral cocktails daily. In fact, drinking those cocktails MAY just be enough to turn off some of our ‘acid symptoms’ WITHOUT actually healing the body.
When we realize that the allopathic medical system is not truly healing us, and that they’re making money off of us by prescribing us expensive medicines (that are toxic to our body) that simply cover up our symptoms (and cause more symptoms) instead of healing our body, we turn to the world of holistic healing. And we are SO used to the thinking: “got a symptom, take a pill”, that when we discover there are “pills” that are all natural and not harmful to our body (and will take away our symptoms!), we naturally jump right on that old bandwagon with a LOT of joy, enthusiasm & relief!! And we can EASILY fall victim to the thinking process (above)…there’s a lot of truth mixed in with a few falsehoods, a LOT of people talking forcefully, genuinely & enthusiastically, and a LOT of people agreeing with them…so off we go, thinking and repeating to others what we think we know is the truth. But there’s a ‘big whoops’ that got missed in there! Taking “herbal cures”, supplements, alkalizing drinks, tonics, tinctures & various forms of ozonated/electrified ‘stuff’… many MANY times only serves to cover up our symptoms (just like allopathic ‘cures’)!!! This may be JUST as “unnatural” as bombarding our body with allopathic ‘symptom relievers’…and NONE of us truly know just how much harm we are really causing in the long run.
Example #1: We’ve used Miracle II neutralizer fluid for years as a way to safely keep our acid low & our alkalinity up (as well as using it for detoxing baths and a variety of other household uses). And after taking it for only a few DAYS, the symptoms of acidosis that are so common started disappearing…and after a few weeks, we could see the results (and lack of symptoms) quite clearly. No more skin tags forming; thickening toenails (from toenail fungus) leaving; less scalp itching/dandruff; ‘most any infection could be banished with a double dose; and on & on & on. But we also noticed, that if we ran out or stop taking it regularly the symptoms reappeared almost immediately. Had we achieved an alkaline state? NO! But we had achieved a ‘false peacefulness’ that happened because we covered up the ‘sounds’ of our bodies screaming and crying out for help! Because that is EXACTLY what a symptom is….our bodies trying desperately to tell us something is dreadfully wrong. And the ‘wronger’ it gets, the worse the symptoms become.
One of the reasons I got ‘back on the bandwagon’ of holistic health and healing a few years ago (that I have ‘dabbled in’ my entire life) was because I have dealt with horrendous boils & carbuncles (worsened/complicated by fatty tumors known as lipomas), in varying stages/degrees since I was a teenager. These nightmarish golf-ball sized boils not only crippled my body, but also my spirit. The pain was fantastical; there were days I couldn't walk or move at all; they oozed the foulest and most nauseating of smells & substances. I was ashamed to be in my body, and the emotional consequences were enormous. Of course, strong antibiotics relieved them temporarily, but they always returned in some form or another. Then I decided I just had to get to the bottom of the situation, so I started looking for natural ‘cures’. First I started using Colloidal Silver…and if I took Colloidal Silver every day, they went away. BUT when I stopped taking CS, they came back. (And of course, the stress on my entire digestive tract was phenomenal because the CS kills ALL bacteria, not just the 'bad guys'). But I didn't know that, and I didn't care; it took away the horror. Those that sold me the CS told me that all my digestive symptoms were "die off" and/or "healing crisis", and they/I had not the knowledge to understand the real reason for the symptoms the CS caused at that time. And then there was Transfer Factor (same results), and then Echinacea (same results), and then Miracle II…still no lasting, true, CURE. I had found a multitude of things that would cover up my symptoms, but NOTHING that would cure my body.
I could have EASILY (with a true heart and the most honest of intentions) have devoted substantial resources and dedicated my life to helping those people with severe boils & carbuncles, and started selling or strongly recommending ANY of those very fine products/herbs. Luckily for my ego & pride (and for the health of thousands of people), I found out the truth…that cleansing the organs thoroughly of accumulated acidic toxins & poisons (and NOT putting any more toxins into me), pure water, fresh air, sunshine, no negative emotions/energy, exercise and an almost complete change of diet IS THE ONLY WAY there is to attain an alkaline terrain…and that is the ONLY true cure for infections & disease of ALL kinds.
**!!** This does NOT mean I’m saying that symptom relief & control while we’re healing our body is a bad thing. In fact, the removal of symptoms is a very positive & encouraging thing, and in many case the symptoms (severe pain, etc) removal of the symptom can almost be considered a requirement to attain a strong state of alkalinity & vibrant health. **!!**
So what exactly happens to our bodies in the long run, if we constantly shove them full of herbal/natural products and supplements that temporarily remove symptoms? Well, of course, there’s never been a lot of research done on this (as almost everyone that devotes their life to teaching natural health simply has to sell “product” in order to survive)…so even in the holistic world ‘people push product’ just like allopathic medicine. Once again, there is NO MONEY TO BE MADE by ANYONE in truly healing the body by simply teaching us how to cleanse our body and eat & live ‘right lifestyles’ (and besides, the majority of us have yet to learn holistic healing isn’t any type of a ‘quick fix’ and we’re still listening to our ‘programming’ that we should ‘pop a pill’ or a product to achieve health). And anyway, those that have/had gained the immense amount of knowledge necessary (as to how to create and utilize our Earth’s healing herbs to create extremely effective, safe healing products and methods) and have attempted to practice medicine and use their research to heal others…have had their clinics raided and shut down by the government FDA, been arrested and imprisoned (or ran out of the country). Dr. Kelley, Dr. Schulze, Dr. Gerson, and Dr. Christopher are the greatest healers of all times…and all of them risked their safety bodily safety and freedom in order to teach and heal.
Oops, I strayed from point. What happens when we ‘overuse’ natural products? Well, the one example I can think of is the use of “antis” …anti-bacterials, anti-fungals, anti-virals, etc. Our immune system is VERY smart…when hit with a ‘bad invader’of any kind, the immune system will learn & remember ‘the code’ of that invader, and by allowing the immune system to fight & win on it’s own (and helping the immune system by providing it with the good nutrition it needs for ‘ammunition’), we will develop permanent immunity from that particular invader. But what happens if we use an “anti” herb or product instead of allowing our immune system to fight & learn? We just killed off the invader (and heavens knows what other very vital organisms in our bodies) WITHOUT allowing the immune system to learn. And the next time our body encounters the same invader, there is no natural immunity and the fight/cycles starts all over again.
And another very important thing along those same lines is this: not everything we think of as “an invader to be killed” is truly an invader. For instance, Candida yeast is NOT an ‘invader’. Candida is a normal part of our body’s ‘clean up crew’; it’s there to clean up our terrain when we stray ‘off course’. But if our diet is consistently poor, we have a thick layer of mucoid plaque (which provides the PERFECT environment for the yeast to breed and eat) and our body is overloaded with incoming sugars and toxins, the yeast go crazy and reproduce like mad…causing Candida infections and overgrowth. So then, without researching and learning, we start bombarding our body with all kinds of “natural” yeast killing/anti fungal products & oils. Again, sometimes we just HAVE to lessen the symptoms to get to the place where we have the energy & clarity of mind to be able to do what is necessary. But taking scads and scads of anti-fungal products also effectively kills off EVERY natural yeast/fungus in our body…and they are there for a very good reason.
The Foundation of Alkalinity & Health:
--If we have ever eaten incorrectly for any length of time, we have a thick layer of extremely toxic, acidic mucous lining our small & large intestine. EVERYTHING we consume HAS to soak through that thick acidic lining before it reaches the villi/wall of our intestines to be absorbed into the bloodstream. And when what can soak through that layer of acidic toxins DOES make it into our bloodstream, how alkaline do you think it is? Does it matter how alkaline it started out to be? Well sure, incoming alkaline is always better than incoming acid…but it will become at least partially acidified when it seeps/soaks through a layer of acidic toxins.
--That blood (that just got so “nourished” by the hopefully nourishing, alkaline food we ate that soaked through a nice thick layer of mucoid plaque), now goes through the liver for cleansing, detoxing and to become chemically altered so it can be utilized by the various organs in our body properly & efficiently. But if the liver is clogged & sluggish full of extremely acidic toxins and stale bile/cholesterol crystals that are loaded with bile salts & condensed toxins that it has filtered out over the years, and all the blood in the body goes through the liver every 3-5 minutes (which it does)…THEN what happens? Well, the blood of the body MUST be maintained at 7.35/7.4 pH or else death occurs. So the liver MUST take alkaline minerals from our bodies in order to cleanse/alkalize the blood, as well as continue filtering into itself the acids & toxins…which of course, causes the liver the become even more toxic, sluggish, and less efficient…which of course, causes even MORE symptoms & states of disease.
Remember here, we’re not talking about our food & blood seeping through a typical concentration/blend of acidic toxins like the ones we ingest. We’re talking about acids & toxins that have already been filtered OUT of ‘the general flow’ and away from the internal workings our bodies and intensely concentrated into small areas for DECADES (thus keeping them away from other parts of our body). Yet everything we eat has to soak through them, and every drop of our blood goes through an organ that contains them every 3-5 minutes. (And of course, if we’ve been ingesting a lot of ground up rocks as supplements, everything might be even more condensed, compacted and difficult to remove).
Another aspect of ‘alkaline terrain’ that is very frequently overlooked/ignored is our emotional state. Negative emotions/states (Overwork, Anger. Fear, Jealousy, Stress, and all their ‘friends’) contribute to acidosis. Here’s a great example:
(note: I have not researched all the various methods this author chooses for attaining an alkaline terrain, but I have researched how negative emotions and ‘bad energy’ adversely effect our alkalinity and found it to be true).
Our Mental Chatter
Here is an experiment. Measure the pH of your saliva when you are feeling fine. Then, if you get angry (have a fight with your boss or spouse or for you men, you lose the remote) take your pH then too. And compare!
I did this the other day. I measured my pH at 6.8. That’s a pretty good place to be, between 6.8 and 7.0. However, a few minutes later, my neighbor called with some sort of horse emergency and darned if I could find my keys! The moment I uttered my first fiery word, I saw a pack of pH strips on my desk. I grabbed one and measured my saliva. It was off the chart. I had battery acid in my mouth (nearly).
The pH of our saliva gives us our emotional state. The more alkaline the better our state; and the more acidic, the more emotionally troubled we are. This is a plain and simple fact. If you take care of your body, but ignore your emotions you will not maintain your terrain. Hence, we called this regimen an Holistic Approach. We are focusing now on caring for our entire person, the Holy Trinity, as it were, consisting of the Body, Mind, and Spirit.
Did you know that attending a church service will raise your pH? Praying produces negative electrical charges within our bodies.
In summary (whew!):
-Ingesting pickling lime (that contains fluoride, lead, arsenic, heavy metals, ground rock and crystalline silica) is not the best way (or a healthy way) to achieve alkalinity, and it has the potential of being very harmful in the long run.
-Truth in natural/holistic healing is not necessarily what everybody else is doing or talking about. Truth is NOT determined by the fact that ‘everybody else is doing it’. WE are responsible for our own body; WE are responsible for finding the ‘true truths’…and if we choose not to accept those responsibilities seriously, then we can expect the consequences and results to be unfavorable.
-Ignoring & covering up symptoms (which is the body’s way of begging and crying out for help) with allopathic medicine and/or ‘natural’ herbs & products is NOT ‘natural’, and if relied upon for ‘healing’, has the potential to cause damage to our body.
-Thorough cleansing of the decades worth of toxins from our major organs is the foundation and backbone of alkalinity and true glowing health. Without doing that first, we’re just ‘building our house on sand’ and knocking out a few symptoms.
P.S. For those who would like some assistance in ‘putting together’ a diet, a lifestyle plan AND for learning just how to determine whose words you can trust and rely upon safely, Dr. Schulze has published a FANTASTIC booklet called, “Common Sense Health and Healing – 20 simple, easy and powerful steps to create a new healthy life”. It can be purchased from a variety of places, but getting it from his website is the least expensive (only $16.00!!). Find it here, in the “books” category http://www.herbdoc.com/nhp_800x600.asp
…and while you’re there, check out a few of the free newletters!
(I never fail to learn or relearn something of significance EVERY time I read/reread this booklet…it is jam-packed full of great knowledge AND inspiration & encouragement).
I have no idea how much of the following relates to how ‘rock dust’ reacts inside the human body, but I’d like to share what it does to our home, equipment, appliances and septic tank. When we cut rocks, we use diamond coated blades, wheels & various lapidary equipment. The initially “slabbing” or cutting into the rocks takes place with 50-200 grit diamond abrasive…and the rock is gradually exposed to finer grits of diamond abrasive until it reflects a high-glass-gloss final polish. This final polish is obtained using diamond abrasives in the 14,000 – 50,000 grit range. Some type of oil or water with added chemicals must be used while doing the cutting, to keep the temperature of the cutting blades and grinding wheels at a minimum (as the heat from the friction can damage both the rock itself, and quickly cause the diamond coating to come off of the equipment). The end result is that all the ‘rock dust’ from grinding, cutting & polishing ends up mixed with the oil or water…creating a ‘sludge’ that is virtually impossible to clean from the equipment, container it is collected in, and your body. This ‘sludge’ is a nightmare. If it is allowed to dry, it feels like the finest of baby powder or cornstarch (not gritty or sandy at all)…that is, it feels soft & powdery WHEN you can break it up from the solid lump of rock it reforms into! When we wipe the sludge/dust off our bodies (or use rugs/towels to wipe it off the flooring or equipment), the sludge goes into the washcloth/towel/rug and when you put those into the wash machine, the majority of the sludge dissolves into the water and appears to go harmlessly down the drain. As does the water that you rinse yourself with, and the water you use to clean out the small containers, and the water from washing your clothes, etc, etc. And you just keep doing that ‘harmless rinsing & cleaning’ until every part of every pipe in your house becomes coated with ‘rock sludge’ and the septic tank becomes totally clogged with a very thick layer of sludge that has accumulated throughout the parts and on the bottom of the tank…and you get to spend thousands of dollars digging up your septic tank and using toxic chemicals to clean your pipes and appliances to avoid totally replacing everything. And folks, that happened to us EVEN when we thoroughly pre-rinsed EVERY towel, rag, rug and our bodies OUTSIDE of the house with the garden hose. I’m telling ya true, if ‘rock dust’ has anywhere close to the same effect inside the human body as it does outside the human body, drinking it daily (or consuming it in supplements) is NOT something you want to be doing.
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