Is it possible to have withdrawal symptoms from animal protein?
I had this a few times now and I'm having some hard to diagnose issues. It starts with a week or two of abstinence from animal protein and then I get dizziness, nausea, gas pains through my whole trunk area, then it turns into pain and then vomiting. One time I passed a kidney stone, but I also wasn't drinking nearly enough. The doctors are suspecting either severe reflux disease/h pylori which doesn't really feel right to me, or a gall bladder problem.
The last one sent me to the emergency room as I was vomiting for 3 days straight and couldn't keep anything down, not even a few sips of water. Water and raw fruits seem to make things worse and certain spices like tamarind and soy sauce will send me back into the hospital. Eating meat seems to temporarily suspend the problem, but I've been slowly losing my desire for meat over the course of the past few years.
Normally I would have no problems just seeing if it is a cleansing reaction, but winding up in the emergency room needing iv fluids is not a good route.
I think yes is a feasible answer to your question. I've tried going vegetarian a few times in my life and my body gets sick and weak within less than a month. I go back to meat and my health improves immediately. I think there are some people who cannot do well on a vegetarian diet no matter how carefully they plan their diet.
>>>I think there are some people who cannot do well on a vegetarian diet no matter how carefully they plan their diet.<<<
And I am sure this is incorrect! And the reason I'm sure of it is because thousands (if not tens of thousands by now) of Christopher/Schulze/Gerson patients that came to them with terminal illnesses (many with more than one, and at death's door), all were put on vegan/vegetarian diets (along with cleansing/detoxifying protocols/herbs to restore their body to it's natural state of health). And those that weren't too far along in their disease progression to succumb to the original disease/s, did NOT get sicker or weaker within a short period of time - they got STRONGER and were healed.
There are bazillions of people that are vegan/vegetarian that have horrible health issues that 'feel better' when eating meat & meat fat - there are also bazillions of people that have horrible health issues that 'feel better' when eating pharmaceuticals (and if they stop eating them, they feel sicker & weaker in a short period of time).
Even the allopaths know the truth -
heart/artery disease? stop/lower animal flesh/fats
kidney disease? stop/lower animal flesh/fats
liver disease? stop/lower animal flesh/fats
So animal flesh/fats degrades/compromises our liver, kidneys, heart & arteries (not to MENTION the horrors it plays on the digestive tract & colon). First thing we do when trying to heal our bodies? Stop doing/ingesting what harms them!
'Sorry to hear you've had bad experiences when attempting to lower your intake of meat. If you'd like suggestions on how to cleanse/restore your organs and adjust your diet so that doesn't happen, you know where to find me :)
Please remember, this is a private support forum supporting the works of Christopher/Schulze/Gerson (and their counterparts). If you'd like to ask questions about the protocol & healing methodology - great! If you'd like to answer questions with information from those protocols - great! If you'd like to share your testimonies with these protocols (or ask for help with the protocols) - great! If you'd like to chit-chat & socialize - great! If you'd like to post non-supporting and/or conflicting information regarding the protocols this forum supports...then there are hundreds of other forums on CZ for that. Thanks.
There's LOTS to be considered. Firstly, stopping ANY food (animal or plant) should ***never ever*** produce symptoms such as what you're reporting...particularly not in just a week or two. Past kidney stone, what they're considering (which is never going to get to the root of the problem/s, because they don't know HOW to heal, only cut/carve & dispense toxic drugs) and all those symptoms adds up to a strong need to start restoring your body to a natural state of health
For consideration: when most people stop eating 'something', they start eating 'something else' to take it's place...so perhaps you've substituted something for the meat that's causing strong reactions.
Also, aside from the poisons they spray on and put in food (and the microwave cooking that alters it), GM frankenfoods, irradiated foods and general junk food...the absolute hardest natural food for our bodies to process, digest & assimilate is animal foods & animal fats. What this means is that because the body has to work so hard (and divert so much energy) to the process of breaking down & assimilating 'animal food & fat', ingesting them will many times bandaid/squelch certain symptom. A good example of this is hypoglycemia (which is almost always due to liver compromise). Animal protein slows down digestion and assimilation so much that the 'feed' of nutrients/carbs/sugar is abnormally slowed...which does give relief from the up/down blood sugar reaction, but compromises the liver/digestion even further. Hence someone with liver/digestive compromise can stop eating high protein/fat and experience hypoglycemia (and swear the meat/fat is the "cure" - when it's actually like a drug that bandaids/hides symptoms, only to make one even worse).
It sounds/seems possible (from the limited info I have) that when you stop eating all the heavy meat that your body may be somehow starting to cleanse/repair your liver & digestive tract (or the sluggishness from the meat being taken away is revealing the actual state of your body/health)...and that's somehow throwing you all the various symptoms. That could be combining with reactions to whatever you're substituting for the meat (especially if it's soy protein...which is almost always GM).
If you'd like more information regarding how to heal your body naturally (and ensure vibrant health for the rest of your life), you can start by listening to these quick audios (20 Steps) curezone.com/forums/fm.asp
If that all makes sense with you and you'd like some help getting started, copy/paste these questions into a post (or into Word), fill out the answers in as much detail as possible, and repost it with your answers/thoughts. http://curezone.com/forums/am.asp?i=1651564
I'll answer as soon as possible (which may be several days+).
i agree with your best guess which is that i'm going into a detox from stopping the meats. this is a very heavy duty detox for me, and i've been through some extremely difficult detox before. kidney detox scares me after passing those stones last year.
i really don't feel like a have a choice now, as eating meat does not feel like food. i was on animal protein for a very long time, and it served its purpose.
after a zillion Liver Flushes my body started wanting to switch over to carbs for fuel so i got into eating sourdough bread for long stretches with no problems at all. at first i was suspicious of the bread causing the problems but i went for too long with no problems to rule it out as a primary cause. thai food has sent me into a tailspin overnight two times now. maybe it's the soy sauce, i'm not sure. this time was the scariest because i had to seek out a doctor for the iv fluids, and i really really really hate going to doctors.
most likely this was a gall bladder attack, just an atypical one for me as i have never had pain or vomited before... even when passing large stones during flushes.
i read your dr. christopher diet document and i am considering that now. i will experiment with low heat cooked grains as a staple carb and see what happens. i anticipate having problems with them because my intestines are pretty fickle. i don't digest rice well at all. i think i was doing ok on sourdough because it is all predigested by the cultures.
cayenne works well for me, i think i could do upwards of a teaspoon per day with no problems, putting some in lemonade.
salads sound good but vinegar may be one of the foods that sets off these episodes, whatever they may be. i was on a low fiber diet for a long time as fiber irritated me, but the past few years along with tapering off of meat i have been craving fibers more and more to the point where i'm craving pure flax smoothies. i never feel good afterward but it is probably a new type of detox and it is bearable.
i wish i could tolerate cider vinegar because i know it's great for Gallstones and parasites, but i think it would send me to the hospital.
anyway i appreciate the help and i'll fill out your questionaire later today.
i've read a ton books and a fair amount about schulze and christopher, but the timing was not right for me to get into that scene.
Exercise daily? weekly? never? (how much, what type?)
never/dog walking a few times a week. if i pushed myself i could probably run 1-2 miles per day after training up to it.
the problem is that i'm teetering on low energy all the time and always in a state of cleansing so i never really feel like pushing things.
i did an experiment last year and was able to do a lot of exercise with no downside. the problem was that after all of that work i had very marginal gains,
my gall bladder was still not moving and exercising with all of that congestion just seemed pointless.
--how much water do you drink daily? (what kind of water? tap; filtered -what kind of filter?-; reverse osmosis (RO); distilled; spring/mineral; other)
almost no water, perhaps 1 cup a day if that.
water here is not chlorinated or fluoridated.
i have mineral spring water occasionally which tastes a bit cleaner but water is water and it doesn't feel good.
Other beverages (daily, occasionally):
lemonade, black tea, herbal tea, vegetable soup, fruit juice, fruit smoothies.
try to drink at least 2 liters per day ever since my kidney stones, but sometimes fall short
Diet (in any given week) - please be as specific as possible:
0-8 ounces meat, chicken, beef rarely, lots of lemonade with honey or maple syrup -- recently adding in cayenne.
one or two large glasses of lemonade lately feels like a meal replacement.
8 ounces olive oil
up until recently a lot of sourdough bread with butter or cream cheese
occasional salad, romaine, tomato, carrot
occasional homemade garlic hummus
blueberry or strawberry smoothies with pineapple juice or grape juice
chocolates or chocolate wafers, i do very well on fats and since trying to come off meats, chocolate has been a source of fat.
it isn't a health food but it is a source of fat that works ok for me even though i don't like the sugar.
i tried many things to help my intestines and the saturated fat seems to be the best thing or compromise so far. if i could restore bile blow i think this would change.
2-10 cups cooked vegetables like onions, mushrooms, spinach, sometimes in casseroles with heavy cream
occasional rice milk or grain milk (packaged), i try to get ones with cold pressed oils, the low quality ones tastes like
the oils are rancid.
0-2 liters kefir/week
no Sugar raspberry jam
occasional high fat cheese like brie, camembert
i am often craving saturated fats like butter or high fat cheese, cream etc. my intestines do very well with these fats
and they don't seem to aggravate my gall bladder issues. if i go for a period of time without saturated fats my whole body seems
to just shut down.
go through periods of eating indian food. once i thought tha spicy foods triggered my gb issues but most spices are fine.
possibly black pepper causes problems.
corn tortilla chips/ guacamole.
ocassional mangoes, grapes
--white sugar? white flour? white salt?
i went about 10 years or more without any white flour or sugar. recently i have been eating a fair amount of flour as sourdough
or some pasta here and there. i used to think that flour was the source of all my problems, but my body has shifted pretty
severely and i feel fine eating some flours and some sugar. Sugar doesn't seem to bother me much. i try to stay away from it in general,
i don't drink sodas or sugary foods except for chocolates, and that is mainly about getting fat in to help lubricate my intestines.
i have tried all the different salts, and to be honest i don't feel different on regular table salt than the fancy salt.
when my body needs sodium it doesn't care where it comes from. due to low aldosterone i am dumping too much sodium and salt
helps my adrenals considerably. without salt intake i have zero thirst and would become dehydrated very fast. too much salt and not enough
liquids is a bad combo too, so i always try to drink when i am taking salt. i don't do much processed food with high sodium
but when i do it is usually when i'm craving sodium and it makes me feel better. my natural inclination would be for no salt and no liquid. so i have
to force some salty foods down in order to have any thirst at all.
chocolates mainly, pasta occasionally, packaged rice or grain milk, sometimes canned beans.
--gmo frankenfoods (non-organic: soy/derivatives, corn/derivatives, canola/cottonseed oil, beet sugar)
try to stay away from soy as i don't feel well on it. don't have much hfcs, avoid canola and cottonseed,
in general not an appreciable amount of any of these foods.
--how many/what kind of fruits/veggies daily? (raw, steamed, cooked?)
0-3 cups per day. almost always cooked well. especially like onions, green beans, mushroom, peppers sauteed.
i like salads a lot but it is somewhat irritating to digestion. when i was first ill i tried out all sorts of vegetables and they never seemed to work well for me.
--dairy (what kind? how much?)
only high fat or kefir.
don't drink milk at all. kefir seems to work well sometimes for me, but too much causes loose stool and it is too sour for every day.
butter works well at times, i like cream vegetable soups and cooked high fat cheeses.
--meat (what kind? how much?)
when i first became ill i was eating enormous quantities of beef to keep my body from breaking down, but this
was a very long time ago. it was very successful initially and i lost alot of body fat and felt like i was onto something very significant.
to some degree i made the mistake of living in the past and didn't realize when i had regained a lot of my health after
cleansing. so i became overweight a few years ago and it was due to too much protein. so the past few years have been a slow and steady
weaning off protein to where i hardly desire any at all. i do crave the animal fats very strongly at times.
beef, chicken, bacon maybe 0-5 ounces per week now. in retrospect meat eating was always about getting the fats and rarely the protein.
--oils & fats (what kind? how much?)
fair amount of olive oil, butter, heavy cream. basically as much as i desire. never have any ill effects from it and it helps
keep my bowels moving.
--what percentage of the above is organic?
usually organic olive oil. butter and cream is not organic.
Do you use a microwave oven? If so, how often?
How "un-wired" are you at home and at work? Cell Phone ? WiFi? Cordless phone (what mHz or gHz? DECT?); other wireless toys & gadgets?
wifi router at home. i rarely talk on the phone.
Are you exposed to chemicals in the home or workplace frequently? If so, what?
no. but i think the root of my problems are from mercury poisoning from childhood vaccines and broken thermometers
Allergies (food, chemical, drugs, other):
severe allergic reaction to tetracycline many years ago. do not like any chemicals whatsoever, and try to steer clear
of as many chemicals as i can.
when i first started working on health the most dramatic reaction was to wheat, causing severe depression. i was off wheat for
almost 20 years until recently where i feel pretty good on it. milk gives me loose stools, haven't had milk in many years
black pepper, vinegar, tamarind, possibly soy sauce causing these recent painful episodes as yet undiagnosed. could be gall bladder attacks
or severe gastric/intestinal irritation or h. pylori????
***small intestine has been dumping stored toxins for over 20 years since i stopped wheat and dairy.
6 years of hardened mucous plaque stool. 8 years of passing worms and hardened mucous stool. and years of mucoid plaque
stool accompanied by metallic burning sensation in throat/tongue.
Pharmaceutical drugs (current/past):
tetracyline for 9-12 months about 24 ago with a severe allergic reaction. synthroid 20 years ago for 3 months. haven't taken any pharmaceuticals in many years.
Over The Counter drugs (current/past):
almost none except for some painkillers during kidney stone episode and last painful episode.
Drugs "other" (current/past):
stopped the MJ when i became ill. on the tail end of the Liver Flushes many years later when my body started working again MJ started to feel
very healing, especially for brain function. i have an intuition that it is clearing off some`neurotransmitter receptors because i feel my much smarter when high.
i got a similar but much better response from san pedro cactus, a mild hallucinogen, some years ago, but it only lasted for a short while.
i would like to do a lot more mj, just haven't gotten around to it.
Supplements (please be as specific as possible as include 'name brands' and amounts taken):
don't take anything regularly now as i try to do everything with foods. occasionaly i take triphala, kelp,
magnesium citrate (i find this irritating)
Other current therapies, cleanses or protocols:
saunas, liver flush, dabbled in high fat diet and indian medicine but don't really stick with any one thing as my body is too erratic
What, if anything, are you are doing or taking now that is yielding positive results?
diet, sauna, liver flush, high fat, low protein, lemonade, adequate sodium intake, relaxation, fresh air,
MJ, cooked onions, black tea, adequate electrolyte intake, cool rainy weather, liver flushes, gentle exercise in fresh air,
What, if anything, have you done in the past that yielded negative results?
too restrictive diets, lipoic acid, high protein diet, drinking water!!! everything drink except water makes me feel better
antibiotics, would not touch them again. brassica vegetables, hot humid environment, tamarind, soy sauce, black pepper,
too much pasta, vinegar, not doing enough liver flushes. i tred Bentonite clay a few times and feel like it could help with the
metals in the gut but it is constipating, so i doscontinued.
none in over 20 years. last one i had resulted in a case of severe shingles.
How many bowel movements daily/weekly? (color, consistency, etc)
2-4 per day depending on what i eat. if i stick to sourdough, high fat, veggies, little meats, and prebiotic foods then i have
the most consistent bm's. most of what comes out of me is hardened mucoid stool. stool is too light colored = no bile flow at all.
Do you have a juicer? (if so what kind? centrifugal; single auger; masticating; if you don't know, what's the brand/model?)
high quality centrifugal. used to have a double auger, but stopped the green juicing.
Current Health Issues (the more details, the better!):
CFS, inflamed colon, never ending intestinal bloating, lower back pain, fatige, gall bladder stasis despite endless flushes,
adrenal/thyroid endocrine problems, dry cough. summer time my health plummets dramatically and i'm bedridden.
as soon as weather changes and the air is cool my energy goes up 50% and i can function. feeling of suffocation pretty much all the time except after a good bm.
some edema and feeling of swolleness in entire body. after endless liver flushes, my gall bladder still does not work. joint at top of leg where leg connects to pelvis is swollen and painful
through the saunas i have regained a lot of my brain function back and partially restored my endocrine function. irritated small intestine due to years of cleansing
which is a catch 22 situation. eating properly yields never ending cleansing that damages my organs by releasing toxins everywhere. so i take strategic breaks when i'm overloaded by eating pasta to stop
cleansing. dizziness and possible low blood pressure issues with these last pain episodes. constant belching. very poor circulation. uncomfortable in sitting position, prefer standing or lying down.
i have tried kelp on and off for years for the thyroid/circulation. it seems to work right after i take it and then there is some sort of cascade that makes me feel worse, possibly overstimulating the thyroid and taxing adrenals.
it also acts in a similar way as prebiotics and cleanses the small intestine, possible lectin blocker or acting on metals in the gut.
the most recent episode of vomiting started after thai food. then it felt like i had gas trapped inside my sternum area and back and radiating up into chest.
i had an ekg, ultrasound, and xray all yielding no pathology. i couldn't keep any food or water down for 3 days and had to get i.v. hydration and some antispasmodic meds.
the problem feels like it is still there but no pain anymore and i'm keeping everything down. it could have been a gall bladder attack, who knows.
they tried to do an endoscopy on me yesterday but i couldn't swallow the giant tube, and they don't use sedatives here, so i may have
to go to a clinic if i want an endoscopy. a little bit scared to do the next Liver Flush if it causes another episode but i supposed i have no choice.
If you've consulted any type of practitioner, what did they determine or suggest? Do you agree?
mercury poisoning in lungs, scar tissue on lungs, mercury in both large and small intestines, mercury in thyroid, mercury in nervous system, scarred adrenal cortex from mercury.
severe impaction of small intestine and colon. i agree with this diagnosis. this diagnosis was many years ago, so my colon may have resolved the impaction
but the bloating is not going away. my small intestine is still kicking out hardened mucoid waste.
Have you ever done any "cleansing"? (colon, liver, kidney, etc); if so, when and what type/product & results?
i have done a lot of intestinal cleansing, but mainly through diet and pre/probiotics, letting the flora munch away and clean things out.
products never worked for me. tons of liver cleansing. no kidney cleansing. tons of saunas to get rid of metals.
2 years of colonics many years ago, but it was an endless cycle and i didn't want to be addicted to colonics. i had some
coffee implants during the colonics that got out some stagnant gall waste, and i would love to be able to do coffee enemas at home
but i have too much lower gas to do enemas. even when i was doing colonics the first 15 minutes were spent getting rid of gas, to which
the colonic therapist though it was parasites. like i mentioned, i spend 7 or 8 years passing all sorts of worms, and then it slowly just stopped to where
none come out now, or very rarely. it is possible they are still there and just adapted or my body kicked out the majority of them, not sure.
at first i was trying all of the herbal products, but eventually i realized that my body was expelling them on its own by following
an appropriate diet.
about half way through the Liver Flushes my whole body went haywire and i gained a huge amount of weight. not just fat or muscle, but my entire skeleton
seemed to expand. my best guess is that by biliary system was so clogged that triggering it to start working again resulted in all the bile backing up into my system.
i can't say this was the wrong thing to do even all of the severe reactions because at that point something needed to be done. but clearly forcing that system to work for me had
some very severe consequences. this has resolved to some degree, but i still have zero bile flow and my body just feels too big. during this period i became visibly jaundiced and decided to plow forward
with the flushes. the jaundice subsided and my body shrank somewhat, but that problem has never been resolved.
What other types of allopathic, alternative or natural therapies or protocols have you tried (if any)? results?
too many to list here, i would have to write a book. i tried to relate what i thought was most relevant in the previous questions.
Past issues, drugs, surgeries that you think may be contributing to current issues?
Any major changes in diet, supplements, drugs, stress-levels, location, lifestyle recently? results?
positive changes in decreasing animal protein, weight loss/energy increase, but also possibly contributing to
some new type of cleansing, kidney stones? new type of gall cleansing? moved to a smaller city with favorable results, closer to park.
Are you aware of the difference between "alternative medicine" and truly natural healing?
i 'think' i have been into natural medicine for a long while from what i've read on your forum in that i never try to suppress reactions.
i am trying to make whatever changes or therapies i do stick so i don't have to worry about them later. the saunas have, for example,
yielded permanent changes and gains.
What do YOU think & discern is wrong (and why?) probably a combination of genetic/ general constitution weakness makes me vulnerable to
environmental toxins and meds. either that or i received too large a dose of mercury. improper diet in childhood.
I'm going to try to get some things going here, maybe posting again will work.
After a year of not passing any parasites, a few days after I was in the ER for this mysterious abdomen pain i had some cayenne for two days and then beets and passed worms at night time.
The pain has subsided a bit but feels like it can creep back if I do anything too far out of my routine.
For the sake of moving things along I'm just going to assume this was nontypical gall bladder pain, and they just can't see it in their xrays or ultrasound.
My lower back is also really bad, thinking back, the back pain may have started somewhere soon after liver flushes. IT could be referred pain from a non=moving gall bladder.
I looked over a lot of the info you gave me and having not had much experience with schulze I agree at least intellectually with most if not all you and he have to say. The problems is getting my body to agree and respond accordingly.
So for the new year I would like to tackle my gall bladder issues, lower back pain and continuing inflamed/bloated colon.
I have done many things in those audio clips, but not the diet part. I am going to try getting on either carrot or romaine lettuce juice and see how it goes. I don't do well with anything harsh, even apple juice can be irritating.
Also the last three flushes I have done produced nothing, but I know there is still a lot of junk in there, so I am going to do the Epsom Salts with the next flush to see if it helps. I haven't needed the ES in a few years and had productive flushes without them.
It seems to be unattainable but I'd like to be able to stop flushes and get things working without forcing it with flushes.
I think also maybe the lower bowel formula would be good to try?
I suspect that animal protein withdrawal may be an issue.
Christopher, Schulz,and Gerson were very strong on cleansing and detoxing. Dr. Gerson had advanced stage cancer patients do a 1 litre coffee enema every 4 hours. He said that it is safe to do that up to 2 years. I am working on a coffee enema morning and afternoon for 5 years already. I am 75 and have been badly constipated most of my life, and still the old matter that comes through has a formidable look and odor.
I think that changing to a vege diet ubruptly may be the problem in your situation. It is often recommended to make
intake and lifestyle changes more gently. Some people even have to go slowly with earthing at first.
Dr. Gerson's protocol plus my own experience with coffee enemas is that it is totally safe,no side effects unless there are obstructions in the colon. Of course I am super
careful that the coffee enema is only about lukewarm.