"Spirituality is a personal choice, a personal belief and a personal path.
What you are trying to do refreshed, is push your beliefs onto others. You have no idea what spirituality is for other people, and for many abortion is not a spiritual issue, it is a biological issue, and an issue of freedom of choice.
MB is in no way blaming innocents for the problems of this world, she, like me, are blaming the guilty. The ones that cause many of the problems, the ones that want to control other people's personal decisions.
--I agree that one's spirituality and beliefs are unique to each person and cannot be forced onto others.
--Our beliefs do affect others though. For example, I might decide that the choice to kill another person is not a moral one but a biologic one and an issue of freedom of choice. Hypothetically, and leaving the current laws out of this (for laws can and do change), I could decide that killing my mother is a biologic issue, not spiritual, as her declining health had become too much for me to handle.
>"...I could decide that killing my mother is a biologic issue, not spiritual, as her declining health had become too much for me to handle..."<
Sure, but the issue is not about killing a separate already-born human being, it's about Abortion.
There is a huge difference between a separate Human Being and a Fetus not yet developed that is part of your own body. The line has to be drawn somewhere over other people telling people what to do with their own body.
Exactly, you are free to choose to kill your mother if that is what you believe is right for you. You cannot, however, leave the current laws aside, as you are subject to them, as is everyone else. Playing the 'what if' game is fine, but it has no bearing on reality.
"Exactly, you are free to choose to kill your mother if that is what you believe is right for you. You cannot, however, leave the current laws aside, as you are subject to them, as is everyone else. Playing the 'what if' game is fine, but it has no bearing on reality.
What a great example of totally taking something out of context.
Here's what I originally said:
"--Our beliefs do affect others though. For example, I might decide that the choice to kill another person is not a moral one but a biologic one and an issue of freedom of choice. Hypothetically, and leaving the current laws out of this (for laws can and do change), I could decide that killing my mother is a biologic issue, not spiritual, as her declining health had become too much for me to handle."
The point being, the beliefs we hold affect the actions we take, which in turn affect others.
Obviously we are always wise to consider the law whenever we make choices. My point here, though, is how our choices affect others.
PS Thanks for the bunny hugs and I have more to say on it here, in case you missed it Spud.
>>"So every time you post one of your propaganda fetus pics, I will balance that out with a live child. One who is living in extreme poverty, war and suffering."<<
why do children live in extreme poverty?
Why do children starve to death?
Why do children get injured and killed in wars?
Why do children suffer?
Why are children aborted as a form of birth control, or for convenience?
(Note, I did not state that abortion may not be warranted in extenuating circumstances, and I am very much aware of abortion being practiced for well over 4,000 years or so).
All the same reasons... man's evil ways\doings.
Acts of Hedonism, Greed, Lust, Selfishness, etc. all negative *emotions* that many people tend to run on.
This does not make any method chosen of killing these children right IMO...
That said, do not let my position, determine yours... you have every right to do what I, or, someone else may believe is wrong.
Killing children before their birth, or killing them after their birth for essentially the same reasons... what is the difference?
One method you witness in slow agonizing misery after birth, the other, abortion, is primarily an out of site out of mind experience for all but the mother and perhaps a few significant others... making it a bit easier to endure the reality of it all... it is still death.
It is still death...
Odd how we are coming to recognize intelligent (communications between microflora) life in a single cell and do not accept it, or rationalize it away, in a sperm, egg, zygote or fetus.
I guess humans can rationalize most everything and anything, including death, destruction, killing, and murder if it brings them a bit of comfort in doing so.
I have always stated, since I have learned this, that WE need to be brutally honest with ourselves if we are to ever *heal*... this is true physically, mentally and spiritually.
You cannot EVER even begin to heal completely without accepting and recognizing the, at times, brutal, ugly truth.
Grz thanks for speaking in non-christian lingo so perhaps others may understand better.
You state: "All the same reasons... man's evil ways\doings.
Acts of Hedonism, Greed, Lust, Selfishness, etc. all negative *emotions* that many people tend to run on."
Christian lingo: Man's evil ways/doings are the spirit of hedonism, the spirit of greed, the spirit of lust, the spirit of selfishness.....and so on....all are negative thoughts that become negative emotions. It all starts in the mind and then may become an action (doing).
In christian beliefs it is just as much a sin in one's mind as it is in one's doing.
Grz, it's wonderful to see a pro-life post that is done intelligently, without name-calling and hateful energy, done in the true spirit of debate.
I would like to address a couple of your points.
"Why are children aborted as a form of birth control, or for convenience?"
First, since the majority of abortions are performed in the first trimester, these fetuses are hardly children. This seems to be one of the huge differences in the belief systems of pro-choice and no-choice proponents.
Second, we have many posts on this forum discussing the fact that multitudes of abortions are out of desperation, fear, poverty, resulting from rape or incest, and many other stressful reasons. By the no-choice opposition to birth control, to sex education, to contraceptive research, and by destroying numerous health care clinics which provide sex education and contraceptive services, these leaders are actually pro-abortion. Why else would they cause many of them? They actually expect women to practice abstinence and natural family planning as a preventative to abortion. This is very unrealistic, and I don't think the boyfriend or the alcoholic abusive husband or rapist would go for this option either.
Many believe we should all be responsible for the consequences of our actions? Yes. Then how are no-choicers taking responsibility for the millions of babies who they propose to be born, who live in abject poverty as a result of forcing mothers to birth still more unloved, unhealthy, unwanted children?
A good question to ask is "Do you have the right to force a woman to have an abortion?" No-choicers would say no. Then what gives them the right to force her not to have an abortion? They likely would respond that they're concern is for the pre-born "baby". But here we are back into personal beliefs again! What about the billions of people who hold different beliefs? Are they to be denied their freedom? What gives them the right to play God in their life by force?
And men don’t often look at it this way, but, combined with the far right’s hostility to responsible sex education, this is a very deterministic way to look at a woman’s life. Under this reasoning, the world can alter a woman in a way that she cannot alter the world, and bind her, and her alone, to a future that she was, in every instance, not alone in choosing, and in which she sometimes had no choice.
Conservatives can take the position that an abortion for “convenience” (any reason other than grave danger to health) is an immoral act, but instead of acknowledging the difficulties it creates, they demonize women expressing valid concerns as selfish, mock those who share them, and in no way attempt to avoid the difficulty by providing meaningful pre- or post-pregnancy support structures. When was the last time you heard conservatives speak honestly about contraception, or push for incentives, whether public or private, for affordable neonatal care, or day care for working mothers? A woman is a passive vessel for the state to control, and then ignore.
That was regarding convenience, here's more regarding abortion NOT used as birth control, 10 ten year study which busted this myth.
"(Note, I did not state that abortion may not be warranted in extenuating circumstances, and I am very much aware of abortion being practiced for well over 4,000 years or so)."
So grz, this is exactly why we need to keep abortion safe and legal. There ARE extenuating circumstances, and very often.
"Acts of Hedonism, Greed, Lust, Selfishness, etc. all negative *emotions* that many people tend to run on.
This does not make any method chosen of killing these children right IMO..."
Sounds like judgement on the woman. Getting pregnant is hedonistic and lustful and selfish? And once again the use of the word "children" is your belief. Not everyone's.
"Killing children before their birth, or killing them after their birth for essentially the same reasons... what is the difference?"
Huge difference. Many physicians and medical researchers believe that fetuses can begin to feel pain sometime only during the third trimester. This is long after about 99% of abortions are performed. And then only in dire circumstances.
"I guess humans can rationalize most everything and anything, including death, destruction, killing, and murder if it brings them a bit of comfort in doing so."
This is not rationalization. This is about choice and women's rights. It's mainly about freedom from power and control. However, this is my opinion and I respect yours.
And let me say this again, because it is a very important distinction. I am truly pro-life in every sense. I love my babies, and even though one of them was conceived during a very difficult and stressful time, I choose to have her, and would NEVER have considered anything else. But I am also pro-choice. IMO, it is truly the compassionate stance. Plus, no one in their right mind would be pro-abortion. This is a distinction that we have tried to convey on this forum that doesn't seem to get through.
Thank you for sharing your personal beliefs with us. What about those who don't believe as you do, do we simply trample on their rights and on their beliefs? And thank you for the spirit and energy in which you posted. And sorry for the long post! Lol.
Issues such as abortion have become extremely convoluted, and man is very confused due to living in ways he should not for centuries upon centuries.
If we accepted and lived the way we were meant to... in harmony with our environment, exercising good stewardship, respect for all life, etc., overpopulation would be rare, except in the most hospitable and supportive environments.
And then... the natural cycles would run their course and keep things in check.
True tribal cultures, including the very few that still survive in remote areas, rarely, if ever, had over-population issues... and did not practice *abortion*.
They did not have to.
I know someone will come along and argue for *modern* society and its conveniences, including the WOW factor of wireless, iPods, cars, planes, etc... however, we have lost much more than we have gained IMO.
The price has been high... in laying waste to this planet, in human, plant, and animal, wild and domestic, illness and death.
Megabite mentioned hunting and killing of animals - what we have now, by choice, has expanded extinction rates, due to our *modern* ways over 1,000 times beyond what is normal - these *deaths* which end up as waste, is a sin... the argument does not fly with me.
Man, his ways against nature, and science, including medical science, have made a huge mess of things.
We are so far removed from our *natural* world, and lives now... that debates such as these ensue... people rationalizing need for things they know innately that are wrong... and that will lead to global chaos and catastrophe.
Unfortunate, as these disagreements push us further away from where we should be, and closer to the edge.
Archaeological stories are breaking every day that push agricultural grain harvests back 30,000 years or more... 10,000 years further back than was thought just a few years ago after believing it was 10 - 12,000 years ago for decades before that...
Metal working is going back to about 30,000 years ago now too.
When I studied food origins and did papers on them in college in the 90's, I discovered through extensive research, that corn was found in caves in South America dating back 20,000+ years or so ago blowing the lid off of the immigration into the America's over the Bering land bridge... at least at the time then thought.
My guess is man has risen and fallen on this planet 3 - 4 times...
The Bible itself states, there is nothing new under the sun... I wonder why?
Ecclesiastes 1:9 (King James Version)
The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
There is a great deal of truth in that book... however, it is generally taught and presented incorrectly, and has been greatly manipulated and convoluted over the ages (how long?) due to copious amounts of *politically* motivated editing intended to control the populations and get them to do their political masters killings\biddings... such as the Crusades, etc.
Now it is being used in Christian nations to garner fervor and support against Muslims... a bunch of PTB manipulative crapola...
My guess is that the origins of the *book* are much much older than the Jews or Christians would ever care or want to believe... especially those believing in the young earth and a nearly 2,000 year old faith.
It is much, much older than that...
I believe it was originally a very descriptive manual on how to live and exist in a *garden of eden*. And many tribes in the Americas had just that, a proverbial garden of eden, before the *discovery* of the continents and their subsequent destruction by the *Christian* conquerors\murderers.
I think the words... *they know not what they do* is in the Bible to... people still do not know what they are doing :\
I'm not sure how many things were so "Natural" in Indigenous times (which still happen today, look at Africa) Incest and Rape are/were common, because of small Tribes. Many men think that is "Natural". I don't think women feel all that different today according to their surroundings and resources. Not so Natural to be Forced to have an Incestuous Baby, or by a Forced Conception (should I just say Rape?) by a Territorial Male.
And not that many women want Babies one after another, even today.
My Mother, the oldest of 8 kids, used to tell me that her Mother (my Grandma) who was from the Old Country, used to say "Oh no, not again!" when she found out she was Pregnant again. My Grandfather and Grandmother were very, very poor. My Mother was the oldest, and had to be the Caretaker of her brothers and sisters because in those days 1920's- 1930's) there were no Social Services.
The result? My Mom ended up having two of us. I know she didn't have an Abortion, but at least she had the respect to limit the Family with the right Resources, which she had way more of than my Grandmother ever had.
On that note:
>">"True tribal cultures, including the very few that still survive in remote areas, rarely, if ever, had over-population issues... and did not practice *abortion*.
They did not have to."<
This is not true. On the contrary, Indigenous women did in fact practice Abortion when they had the instinct to do so. This was mainly through Herbs, and this continued on through History.
>"Megabite mentioned hunting and killing of animals - what we have now, by choice, has expanded extinction rates, due to our *modern* ways over 1,000 times beyond what is normal - these *deaths* which end up as waste, is a sin... the argument does not fly with me."<
I'm not quite sure what doesn't fly with you by what you just said. But I will make something clear. I do eat meat, my body craves it, don't know if it's Blood Type, Family Genes or what. Wish I didn't feel that way but it is what it is.
The reason why I brought this subject up of killing and eating Animals was to illustrate that No-Choice people are Hypocrites. They condemn Pro-Choice women that are in a situation to choose Abortion, but at the same time they themselves kill and eat Animals.
Things are not as simple as everyone thinks they can be. And as you say, the world is much worse now, just as Forced Childbirth would be for every woman.