Hi. Has anyone on here experienced a die off reaction from taking systemic enzymes?
I was already taking SF722 which wasn't casuing much trouble and was working ever so slowly, then I started taking Braggzyme yesterday and I felt lighter and more awake for the whole day, but this moring I couldn't get out of bed and felt super-hungover and cold and my heart was racing.
I was told that these enzymes would not breakdown candida biofilm or eradicate candida, but it seems to be doing just that, if it is die-off I am experiencing.
Please let me know if you have experienced this or if you know why I experienced this.
When i take LugolsIodine in high doses, Colloidal Silver or boron (to name 3) i often get a feeling of deep depression soon after. you probably know these 3 things are meant to fight candida.
I was thinking the other week if this deep depression feeling was candida die off. I also got the same depressed feeling when i took Serrepaptase (a systemic enzyme), although not as strong, so you could be right there.
I also get depressed for a while soon after i take whey protein (no artificial sweeteners added) but i also read whey can fight candida. so it could all be linked?
I also got a depressed feeling when i first stated taking zinc in high doses, and also calcium, but i supsect this depression is for different reasons. the zinc could be candida die off related if its boosting my immune system, or it could be due to the fact it's dislodging heavy metals (which could be said for the Iodine too, so i''m not totally sure)
It's very difficult to read our fluctuations isn't it? Difficult to tell what is causing what and if we are getting better or worse!
I mentioned that I felt very unwell this morning and so I didn't take anymore of the systemic enzymes. I took some of my Thorne Basic Detox nutrients with breakfast which made me feel a lot better and took away the lethargy and palpitations, so I am assuming that I was indeed suffering from toxicity/die-off. The Thorne Detox supplements contains so many things including pantothenic acid, MSM, NAC, molybdenum etc. Each serving is a whopping 12 capsules and I only took 4, even that helped. It also makes me feel very calm.
I don't experience depression when I have die-off but I guess we are all different. It's good that you have a particular symptom which lets you know when it is in fact die-off you are experiencing. My major symptom is heart palpitations.
I am attempting Dr Ettinger's biofilm protocol for candida. I bought the Braggzym thinking that it would substitute for the Interfas Plus which is in his list of essential products. He told me that the Braggzyme will not have the same effect as they are only fibrinolytic enzymes, even though they do contain the required Serrapeptdidase and Nakottinase. It must have been those ingredients which casued the die off, although there is very little serrapeptidase in them.
So anyway, I have ordered the Interfase Plus but am terrified of the possible die off reaction after seeing what the 'less effective' Braggzyme supplement did to me. I have heard many people experienced bad die off from Interfase. Must be effective.
I agree with you that SF- 722 isn't an strong product against candida. It could be effective but work slow. Die- off can happen with any product as long you don't feed candida. How you said, it is very difficult to realize when is hypoglycemia, food intolerance, toxicity from a supplement, or die-off. I think die-off is a must and something we all have to live. More or less severe nobody escape of it.
Yeah I was on the SF722 (Mccombs plan) for 5-6 weeks and only noticed slight changes, if I were to continue to use SF722 alone I am sure it would take many many months to combat the candida. It may be ok for mild cases but I've had this crap for 10 years nearly.
I feel I am on the right path with Dr Ettinger's protocol alongside McCombs detox methods. McCombs diet I fear is not strict enough, perhaps the abundance of allowed fruits was limiting the effectiveness of the SF722.
I am afraid of the Interfase, I have heard herx horror stories about this stuff.
I am still unsure about when to add in probiotics, I may write a fresh post about this. Dr Mccombs adds them in later while other protocols add them in right away. I think I should add them in after my herx has passed, so as not to overwhelm my body. I have leaky gut so I think I shouldn't take the probiotics until I have at least killed some yeast and healed the holes in my gut.
It's all so complicated and scary, I feel like I am playing with fire with all these powerful supplements.
I wonder if the 'biofilm protocol' will disturb the good bacteria in my body? This is a feear of mine. Breaking down the biofilm of the good bacteria. Do they have biofilms?
You will be better. If I were you, I won't be worried about Biofilms. Listen, Candida Albicans Biofilm's Matrix isn't formed with the same substances that microbial biofilms do (iron, magnesium, calcium, etc) so, following a protocol to disrupt bacterial biofilms may be no effective against fungal biofilms. Clove Oil has shown to disrupt candida biofilms but I am not sure if we can take it internally. 2- decenoic acid is another fatty acid that works against some fungal biofilms. You should concentrate in an anti-candida treatment and forget the biofilms for now. As far as Rx antifungals, biofilm penetration has been reached using the Echinocandins which aren't available in oral form. Amp B (IV) also has shown to penetrates some fungal biofilms. This is all " new " and I think we have more things to be worried about. I am not sure if benefical bacterias form biofilms ( they probably do) and what risk could have to take supplements to disrupt them. If Biofilms will be the real problem, we have time to try something against them. But, for now, there isn't any proved protocol which be effective using this way.
I always understood biofilms to be something created by the pathogens, intruders, the bad guys. Never heard of it being done by the good guys. Why would the body harm itself, unless it was an autoimmune thing.
Maybe I wasn't clear in my question. I was already aware that biofilms form on implanted medical devices and on the back of scar tissue. That's what the first study is referring to ("on abiotic surfaces"). I was asking if good bacteria form biofilms in a healthy intestine without candida overgrowth.
Very interesting. As a (former) long-time antacid user, I probably have oodles of them, with all that undigested food traveling my GI tract, and the alkalinizing effect... All I need to find now is an article called: "Symptoms, Signs and Tests for Gastrointestinal Biofilms." ;) Thanks, though.
Sorry to hear about your experience. And I hope you feel better soon.
It sounds to me like you might have broken up a biofilm. Braggzyme broke it up and the Undecylenic killed it, maybe? I experienced something similar with raw garlic.
Big die-offs are unsettling and always make me question whether I've done something wrong, when it's usually the opposite.
Good bacteria do form biofilms, but Candida biofilms are like sci-fi creepy and can do bizarre things. I don't even like to think about them, and haven't seen evidence of them on myself in a couple of months, thankfully.
But the Serrapeptase and Natto are both known for breaking up Candida biofilms. So you may have just done a very good thing. Hopefully, it's a one-time-epic-die-off. Maybe try it at a lower level after you feel better?
**(I later remembered the Natto is a blood thinner and might explain the heart issue. I'm thinking you might want to avoid it. Maybe try Serrapeptase w/o Nattokinase.)
On the fruit issue, I think you're right. I feel like anything w/ a remotely high glycemic value stops/slows my progress. I got so confused about what to eat, that I planned out 5 small meals I know won't set me back, and eat the same thing every day w/ only a bit of variation. Boring, but it works.
On the probiotics issue, my philosophy is to keep taking them, but not at the same time as antifungals. A couple of hours apart. My thinking is that I want to have them there all the time to re-colonize if new territory opens up. And it seems to be working.
On the permeability issue, Lactobacillus GG is supposed to help form a barrier and reduce permeability. Try a search on that.
I just started the GG, so I'm not sure if the claims are true. They have supporting studies, but you know how that is.
The biofilm protocol would probably disturb the bacteria and not the yeast. I think Dvjorge is right. The Candida Biofilm is fibrous and I think it's pretty susceptible to Serrapeptase, Freeze-Dried or Raw Garlic, and the Undecylenic Acid among others (but I've seen a few posts lately where their strains are immune to Undecylenic)...Just not sure you need the protocol.
I'm wary of the EDTA in the Interfase. But it's an interesting product. And I'm a big fan of digestive and systemic enzymes. I feel like they're helping me a lot.
Are you sure you have Mercury poising? That's an area where I'm skeptical with some of the product claims. I've read that true Chelation needs to be done w/ medical supervision and that removing the source is the best way to handle it. Your body will take care of the rest. But that's just my take.
Well, I hope there's something in here that you find useful and I hope you are successful. 10 years is a long time to fight.
Well the Nattokinase is part of Ettinger's biofilm protocol and I am trying to follow it closely as possible.
I still terrible and have only taken 1 capsules of systemic enzymes yesterday. I can't tell if it's that or the Thorne Detox Nutrients actually. Do you think taking something for detoxification would CAUSE some sort of detox/toxic reaction?
Dvjorge, I understand what you are saying about bacterial biofilms protocols not working for fungal biofilms, but Dr Ettinger has no doubts about his protocol working for candida. Perhaps he has made a wrong assumption, but the systemic enzymes and SF722 alone are causing horrible reactions, and I have yet to add monolaurin and lactoferrin. Mind you he said the Braggzme was not the correct enzyme supplement and would not work properly, which is making me worry that this is not die-off, it something that my body doesn't like or something.
Now that I have bought 2 bottles of Interfase Plus from America at no small cost, and am now doubting whether I have the courage to try them (don't like the EDTA, scary), I may have to sell them on Ebay and try the original Interfase without EDTA.
The lady on the phone told me that the Interfase worked really well for her daughter who has candida, and that the EDTA is essential to pull away the susbstances that candida use to form biofilm, but again, that doesn't tie in with what Dvjorge is saying. But stil, she said it worked, so I am going for it.
Dvjorge, how do you explain why the Interfase Plus gives so many people with candida die-off? You seem so sure that these biofilm peotocol supplements WILL NOT work for fungal infections based solely on your readings. I am surprised why these doctors who are creating these protocols like Dr Ettinger are not aware of the differences between fngal and bacterial biofilms.
I am glad you think it's working, I do too.
I have already ordered two bottles of interfase which I will keep on hand just incase I need an extra push. It was expensive so I am a bit annoyed that I didnt do more research before forking out $77 for them.
I started lactoferrin today and whoa, got more die off, must have given my body a massive immune boost to kill the yeast on it's own. I've headaches and my joints hurt and i don't feel like eating, which I know is die off. I think you are correct, I will stick to the systemic enzymes, lactoferrin and detox supplements for now.
I got a lady to test me for how my body reacts to lactoferrin, monolaurin, algin (metal detox agent). She said the monolaurin and algin wouldn;t help me much, but the lactoferrin definitely tested positive and would be powerful for me. And she was certainly right there! She tested the algin on herself and it was postive so she just took it from me as a payment for the session which was cool. lol.
Also please consider that anytime you have an adverse reaction to something, that it could be because you are reacting to it as an intolerance, and not because of die off. I know I am a broken record on this issue, but I truly think it happens a lot more than people realize, and that contributes to not being able to get well. Having candida usually makes us intolerant to a lot of things we haven't been intolerant of in the past. Just something to consider.
I definitely agree, but there is really no way to tell if one is reaction adversley to a product or if it is die-off, unless you really know your die-off symptoms well.
I guess it's just a risk we have to take.
Having said that, I actually know a lady who uses crystals and a weird looking box thing to test if products will react well with your body. I don't know what it's called but she's always right on the money when it comes to finding out what wrong with people. She was the one who first diagnosed me with candida and mercury poisoning, and now that you have got me thinking about adverse reactions san sucre, I think I would feel much more comfortable with my products if I took them all to her first and asked her to test them all for me, especially the Interfase cos that one scares me. She does it for free aswell ...bonus!
There might be an adrenal angle to some of these. For several years I used to get depressed after consuming dairy products. It was most pronounced when my adrenals were at their worst. I knew I was somewhat lactose intolerant, but didn't know that I had a sensitivity to dairy and by consuming it was further burdening my adrenals. I bought some whey protein and tried to use it, thinking it was only barely a "dairy product," but I felt that old depressing feeling again.
The depression after iodine, Colloidal Silver , and zinc are are very probably die-off. The calcium--is it alkaline/alkalinizing? causing the candida to multiply? Then again, when I eat something with Sugar and feed the candida I feel sleepy. Doesn't feel like die-off...