Do NAC or MSM only mobilize copper, or do they also bind to it? And if it's the latter, how tightly do they bind?
In other words, is there a worry of redistribution as there is with mercury?
I've been using zinc to chelate copper, as Cutler recommends. But I wonder if NAC and MSM would be better. I also want to try molybdenum but it comes in such small dosages everywhere I've seen it sold.
It's really important for me to know how well these things bind to the copper released... I have extremely strong suspicions that I have Wilson's disease and if the copper is simply mobilized, my liver won't be able to process it at all.
Moly is crucial for detoxing copper. In both the Cutler, and Wilson information for detoxing copper, it's the #1 thing.
Newport pointed me to a moly that doesn't take a whole bottle to get the dosage. Put in a search on the forum for copper, and you'll find alot of information.
The other important supplements that Cutler also talks about with copper detox, is phosphatidyl choline, ox-bile, taurine and glycine. Copper is detoxed through the bile..and those supplements are for the liver/bile. Very important. Catch .22--toxic, biounavailable copper interferes with liver function..but the liver is what detoxes (eliminates) copper.
Moly is also needed by the liver specifically for detox pathways. It helps convert sulfites into sulfates, for one thing. It also is needed for the main supplement for detoxing the toxins put off by candida, which the liver also gets to detox.
It's confusing, but when copper is toxic (biounavailable), a person can also be deficient for it at the same time. It's because it is oxidized, and not able to be used by the body like it needs to be. Wilson also talks about that in some of his copper articles, which you'll be able to find posts of here too.
This is a conversation that Cutler was having with a woman about copper detox. With my liver being in the shape it's been in for some time, reading this, and information Telman gave me on the Liver Flush Forum - has made a HUGE difference for me! I can't express strongly enough, how taking the Phospatidyl choline, ox-bile, taurine, glycine (actually I'm taking TMG now), has had in helping my bile to finally work like it hasn't for some time. When Telman gave me the information about how the bile is made up of cholestrol, choline, and bile salts..and a deficiency/imbalance of choline and bile salts compared to cholestrol, will cause problems with the cholestrol clumping together--it made THE difference for me. If the is not sufficient with the choline/bile salts...it causes liver congestion, and toxins can NOT be eliminated like they need to be. That's what happens with the toxic copper building up in the liver too.
Like I mentioned too..do a search on the internet for "molybdenum liver", and you can also find how important it is for liver function, not just for the copper detox.
BTW...also look up what Cutler says about ALA increasing copper.
500 mg Glycine,
Which is not very much
(but he doesn't give the dose)
Good. with each meal better
1500 mg Vitamin C,
This is enough but you have to take it several times a day (500-1000
mg with meals and at bedtime is good
NOTE--this is where Wilson and Cutler DISAGREE! According to Wilson, VITAMIN C stirs up copper, and he does not recommend big doses of it for copper detox. That's here someplace in his copper info too.
400 IU Vitamin E,
This is enough, more might be a bit better. I generally suggest maybe
1000 IU. Natural mixed tocopherols if possible.
and 1200 mg Phosphatidylcholine (as part of granulated
lecithin) 3-4 times a day,
Is all the above 3-4 times a day? The E can be once a day. The
lecithin can be whenever.
and occasional adrenal & ox bile.
**Ox bile all the time.**
I had the Wilson, Analytical Research Lab's hair test done, and recently found the same test that Johng had posted several years back from a test done on his son. Cutler and Wilson both also have books on Interpretting hair tests, not so much because of the metals that show up, but by looking at the ratios of the minerals and what they indicate.
Wilson has excellent info on copper. Someplace..in the Cutler book, I was also reading that thyroid is connected to copper. I'll try to find it again. I randomly read tidbits from it every night.
My test results were very similar to Johng's son's tests. Wilson has articles on his site, and the ratio article is where I got the numbers for what Johng's son's test results indicate. The son was 3 years old at the time these tests were done- he has severe allergies, and eczema. What Cutler and Wilson both say, is even if the actual metal doesn't show up as being high- that's not what you look at. For copper- it's the zinc/copper ratio.
Cutler's hair analysis book is based on the Doctor's Data test.
Adrenal Gland Exhaustion: A Major Cause of Copper Toxicity
Diminished adrenal activity is perhaps the single most important physiological reason for copper toxicity problems today. When adrenal activity is insufficient, ceruloplasmin (a copper-binding protein) synthesis in the liver declines. Copper that is not bound to a protein cannot be utilized, and so it is that unbound copper begins to accumulate in various tissues and organs.
According to hair analysis research conducted by Dr. Paul C. Eck, 70-80% of people tested reveal weak adrenal glands or what is termed adrenal insufficiency! Individuals with weak adrenal glands tend to store excess copper in various body tissues, principally the liver and brain. Excessive storage of copper, as we have stated previously, eventually results in organ damage.
I'm glad you asked this question, because I've been needing to find these old posts to reread myself. This is from a thread where Newport had been working on copper detox. In the past, because of how NAC (or cysteine) affects mercury, he wasn't in favor of it..until this:
In that same thread, this is what Cutler also says about liver detox supplements, and copper..but there's another one someplace that also talks about manganese, and calcium too---more searching, but I need to read it too.
>>>>Since both mercury and
copper are primarily excreted in bile, this also indicates too little
bile may be flowing, as can happen for many reasons including
Taking lecithin (or phosphatidylcholine which is concentrated
lecithin), glycine, taurine and milk thistle extract makes the bile
have more ability to dissolve up Gallstones so it can flow better.
Taking 50 mg zinc + 1000-2000 mcg Molybdenum 4 times a day reduces
copper absorption and increases copper excretion. Since mercury and
copper are synergistic, this should make you feel better. Some
improvement should be noted in a month or so, you may need to do this
for 3-6 months to get it under control.>>>
The NAC bottle says:
N-Acetyl cysteine is a stable form of the sulfur amino acid L-cysteine, and is a powerful antioxidant. It is also a precursor of glutathione, a major antioxidant. Glutathione is activated by the selenium-containing glutathione peroxidase, one of the most important antioxidant enzymes in the body.
You said it right when you said the copper detox is a "trial" and will take some adjusting to try to figure out. It's kind of hard to know what to do with the Vitamin C for chelating the Lead, but is a weak chelator of copper so it probably doesn't hang onto it very well. Probably displaces it (?)
>>>but why would the liver not make enough bile? - might this
itself be due to mercury/other metals,
Well, maybe. If only copper is elevated it is usually something else.
If copper and mercury, more often something else than not. With this
particular case that led to the message, the lead is probably killing
her liver, which then can't handle the copper and mercury so that gets
piled on top of the lead. Very unfortunate.>>>
>>>Vitamin C in large amounts, zinc, and molybdenum hinder copper absorption from the intestine. Taking 10-20 mg of zinc, 250-1,000 mcg of molybdenum, 250-500 mg of calcium and 2 G of vitamin C every time you eat will greatly reduce copper absorption. Taking zinc and manganese in a ration of 20:1 will increase the urinary excretion of copper.***
There's some stuff I don't fully agree with in the Townsend letter about the Lyme toxins- (protein), but I found this to be interesting about Molybdenum too:
The mineral molybdenum, available in capsule form, can dramatically aid in the detoxification of the toxins caused by the dysfunction of multiple tissues in chronic illness. Molybdenum is very useful for detoxifying the toxin aldehyde from the die-off of Candida-type yeast. This is important to Lyme sufferers because aldehydes are considered neurotoxins, or nerve poisons. Aldehydes are also the toxins responsible for the hangover experienced by drinking excessive amounts of alcohol. I know of many Lyme patients who complain of this hung-over feeling without having drunk any alcohol. (However, it is our experience that molybdenum will not detoxify the specific Bb toxin.) Even though Lyme sufferers should use molybdenum to get rid of the aldehyde toxins, they also need to drink plenty of purified water to keep the everyday metabolic toxins flushed out of the tissues. Taking molybdenum will help slow the degeneration of tissues and related symptoms from the toxic overload.
Thank you for all this valuable info. I'm going to side with Wilson on this. When I take high doses of Vitamin C (1000mg or more) I get really bad burning-acid-like pain in my midback. I always wondered why everyone on CureZone could take grams and grams of the stuff but I couldn't. Now I know why...
Choline can be very bad for folks with OCD or other forms of anxiety. It's best to get it in it's natural form -- in eggs, starting out in small amounts -- as eggs not only have choline, but they also have sulfur, which helps chelate copper.
Cutler is so wrong on so many levels, but that's another novel.
I have successfully chelated using the Cutler protocol. Not only that, I dug myself out of such a deep hole by following the Cutler protocol that I can safely say I would not be alive today if it were not for him, and I have yet to find _one_ instance in which he missed the mark. He was spot-on every single time.
You, however, are grossly inaccurate even in your latest post.
You recommend eating eggs to obtain choline, and note that they also have beneficial sulfur, and are preferable to taking choline in supplement form. Now, this only applies to people whose sulfur metabolism pathway is working at full capacity. Almost every second mercury toxic individual cannot tolerate sulfur foods such as eggs. Failure to follow a low sulfur diet for these individuals, as per your recommendation, results in horrific redistribution of mercury, these may include excruciating joint pain, nerve damage, eye damage, anxiety attacks, immune system breakdown, etc. You failed to mention this when promoting the virtue of eating eggs. My advice: get your facts straight before you point fingers at Cutler.
On a personal note, your Cutler-phobia has been well noted.
"... and I have yet to find _one_ instance in which he missed the mark. He was spot-on every single time."
He doesn't believe in methylation, he thinks that synthetic folic acid is completely safe, even recommends high doses, he denies that a high percentage of folks have problems converting "folic acid" into active folates…on and on and on.
I'm glad you've recovered, but what works for one, can be harmful for another.
" I had genetic testing showing I have a very impaired methylation cycle
No, you had an irrelevant genetic test that was used as an excuse to get you to
pay a lot of money for advice unrelated to what will happen if you do various
And after a couple of more rants (on CBS upregulation, SOD enzymes, etc.) he apologized, but continued his general dismissal of methylation issues:
"I don't mean to seem like I am trashing out on everyone. It's just that I
haven't been here for a while to gently guide discussion and some nonsense
topics with very glib salespeople have crept onto the list.
Instead of spending months arguing about every little bit of sophistry, I'm just
going to say BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT!!!!! and leave it at that.
Some scumbucket's desire to sell you vitamins, lab tests, and services that
can't help you does not create an obligation for me to waste my time explaining
it away. It's just kind of unfortunate that innocent third parties get seduced
by the glib rhetoric and sometimes a chance assocation (of their symptoms with
something the used pill salesmen said) and end up bringing it to the list.
So BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT!!!!!
But I mean the ideas (MTHFR in most of the cases, CBS in all cases, SOD in all
cases), not the people bringing them here. They're trying to do the right thing
and dig up useful information, then share it. I'm just trying to do the right
thing and get them to focus on useful information instead of not useful
Cutler on Folic Acid, where he kind of contradicts himself re methylation:
"The 'folic acid fad' is total nonsense. All forms of folic acid are fine (you'd
be dead if they weren't, interconversion is essential for life).
Mercury toxic people, like babies poisoned by their doctors with vaccines, have acquired impairments of methylation metabolism and many other things. In the ongoing game of "blind man and the biochemical elephant" this has become the most recent fad to loot people while not helping them very much.
If you think you have a folic acid issue, or your kid does, try 2,400 or 3,200
mcg with meals and at bedtime. This can be convenienty done with 3 or 4 of the very small and readily available 800 mcg folic acid pills you can get more or less anywhere vitamins are sold."