We really need your tin foil hat helping us understand this better.
My question is this--
If a person that is chronically ill (lyme's)has both high levels of nitric oxide..and high levels of ammonia...
and the process of breaking down ammonia into urea is with an ornithine enyzme...but ornithine is a nitric oxide producer...should a person with both high ammonia AND high nitric oxide use ornithine (further increasing nitric oxide productions?) Don't mean to get you confused with my confusing question :(
I know high levels of ammonia are an indication of liver and kidneys not being able to process ammonia out, and can lead to a serious condition (including coma and death). Many things can be the cause of ammonia (including Lyme's), this one says intensive exercise..
>>>>Ammonia itself is a by-product of intensive exercise, and without the urea cycle the body would rapidly become polluted. It is a very toxic product, and causes the death of thousands of people each year. This is generally in people who suffer liver and kidney disease, and the ammonia can not be broken down and excreted.
Your brain cells are particularly sensitive to ammonia, and as levels increase the effect progressively ranges from drowsiness thru tremors to coma and eventual death. Any condition, therefore, that reduces the body's capability of metabolizing ammonia is potentially very serious, and any supplement that can help prevent this is valuable.>>>>
David Jernigan says:
>>>>The Bb in joints and musculoskeletal tissues may be creating symptoms due to the conversion of NH3 to nitric oxide (NO), which is well documented as causing multiple pathological processes, including sepsis, hyperactive inflammatory processes, and joint pain. Direct resonance testing has revealed that the liver and heart are often testing positive to accumulations of NH3, which is not being converted into urea or nitric oxide.>>>>>
Nitric oxide is not a bad thing, normally, but from what I'm understanding, the immune system causes increased nitric oxide against different pathogens. I was just reading where people that have malaria, have also been found to have high nitric oxide levels too.
>>>Macrophages, certain cells of the immune system, produce nitric oxide in order to kill invading bacteria. In this case, the nitric oxide synthase is inducible NOS.
Under certain conditions, this can backfire: Fulminant infection (sepsis) causes excess production of nitric oxide by macrophages, leading to vasodilatation (widening of blood vessels), probably one of the main causes of hypotension (low blood pressure) in sepsis. The inducible isoform of nitric oxide synthase is expressed and produces cytotoxic levels of nitric oxide.>>>>
This guy is saying the same thing, that common pathogens/toxins are found in CFS, Fibromyalgia, and one thing that is found in them both, is elevated levels of Nitric Oxide.
>>>We have, here, 17 diverse stressors implicated in initiating these illnesses, leading one to ask, how they may do so? What I have argued, in my book (1) and elsewhere (2-10), is that each of these can act to increase nitric oxide levels. Each is reported to increase the levels of nitric oxide, or in three cases where that has not been studied, to stimulate a process which is itself known to increase nitric oxide. This is a striking common response and leads to the question about how nitric oxide increases might lead to chronic illness? My answer to that question is that nitric oxide, acting primarily through its oxidant product peroxynitrite, initiates a biochemical vicious cycle that is responsible, in turn, for the chronic illness. We have, then, an initial cause of illness (short-term stressor or stressors) acting to start this vicious cycle, with the cycle responsible for causing the chronic phase of illness. We are now calling the cycle the NO/ONOO- cycle after the structures of nitric oxide (NO) and peroxynitrite (ONOO-) but pronounced no, oh no! The cycle mechanism is outlined in Figure 1:>>>
Table 1. Illness: Stressors Implicated in Initiation of Illness
The five principles underlying the NO/ONOO- cycle as an explanatory model are as follows:
Short-term stressors that initiate cases of multisystem illnesses act by raising nitric oxide synthesis and/or other cycle elements.
Initiation is converted into a chronic illness through the action of vicious cycle mechanisms, through which chronic elevation of nitric oxide and peroxynitrite and other cycle elements is produced and maintained. This principle predicts that the various elements of the NO/ONOO- cycle will be elevated in the chronic phase of illness.
Symptoms and signs of these illnesses are generated by elevated levels of nitric oxide and/or other important consequences of the proposed mechanism, i.e. elevated levels of peroxynitrite or inflammatory cytokines, oxidative stress, mitochondrial dysfunction and elevated NMDA and TRPV1 receptor activity.
Because the compounds involved, nitric oxide, superoxide and peroxynitrite have quite limited diffusion distances in biological tissues and because the mechanisms involved in the cycle act at the level of individual cells, the fundamental mechanisms are local.
Therapy should focus on down-regulating NO/ONOO- cycle biochemistry. In other words, we should be treating the cause, not just the symptoms.
The "Urea Cycle"..where ammonia is converted to urea, is also called the "Ornithine Cycle". Ornithine is not just a supplement, it is the major part of the process of how the body gets ammonia excreted.
>>The sequence of chemical reactions that takes place in the liver and that results in the production of urea. The key reaction is the hydrolysis of arginine by arginase to ornithine and urea.
The urea cycle (also known as the ornithine cycle) is a cycle of biochemical reactions occurring in many animals that produces urea (NH2)2CO from ammonia (NH3). This cycle was the first metabolic cycle discovered (Hans Krebs and Kurt Henseleit, 1932). In mammals, the urea cycle takes place only in the liver.
Organisms that cannot easily and quickly remove ammonia usually have to convert it to some other substance, like urea or uric acid, which are much less toxic. Insufficiency of the urea cycle occurs in some genetic disorders (inborn errors of metabolism), and in liver failure. The result of liver failure is accumulation of nitrogenous waste, mainly ammonia, which leads to hepatic encephalopathy.>>>>
Most likely why Mag Malate is so important in Lyme, with a broken ATP cycle the lack of Oxygen forces the body into making too much NOS. This is a secondary energy cycle used deep in muscle tissue and brain where the oxygen can't reach.
Management of Fibromyalgia: Rationale for the Use of Magnesium and Malic Acid.
Journal of Nutritional Medicine (1992) 3, 49-59.
Abraham GE, Flechas JD.
Primary fibromyalgia (FM) is a common clinical condition affecting mainly middle-aged women. Of the etiologies previously proposed, chronic hypoxia seems the one best supported by recent biochemical and histological findings. We postulate the FM symptoms are predominantly caused by enhanced gluconeogensis with breakdown of muscle proteins, resulting from a deficiency of oxygen and other substances needed for ATP synthesis. We present data supporting a critical role for magnesium and malate in ATP production under aerobic and hypoxic conditions; and indirect evidence for magnesium and malate deficiency in FM. After treating 15 FM patients for an average of eight weeks with an oral dosage from with dosages of 1200-2400 mg of malate and 300-600 mg of magnesium, the tender point index (TPI) scores (x±SE) were 19·6±2·1 prior to treatment and 8±1·1 and 6·5±0·74, respectively, after an average of 4 and 8 weeks on the magnesium malate combination (p<0·001). Subjective improvement of myalgia occurred within 48 h of supplementation. In six FM patients, following 8 weeks of treatment, the mean TPI was 6·8±0·75. After 2 weeks on placebo tablets, the TPI muscle pain occurs within 48 h of placebo administration. A double-blind placebo control trial is currently underway.
I need to find a different Mag Malate than the Jigsaw. After using it all that time, it's a good quality magnesium (Albion)..but it's Dimagnesium malate...and now that I'm looking at it better, it doesn't say anything about malic acid in it. :(
I won't use the Nature's Life one that I still have, that I got at the Health food store, (that is Magnesium Malate (200 mg) and Malic acid (960 mg), because it doesn't break down and get absorbed, it comes out whole. It won't even dissolve in straight vinegar over night.
I'm looking for a different one on iherb, if you have any suggestions.
BTW--I also found that high NO causes low blood pressure. AFter getting the right mag malate and being on it for a while, I'll have to see if it also makes a difference in my low blood pressure.
So now I'm wondering about something else...
From the down-regulating supplement protocals for N.O, many of them are antioxidant's. A person with high N.O is in a highly oxidizing state, could be turning to rust inside (?) (Add the heavy metals to that scenario too.)
And anemia is a factor. Is it really anemia, and low iron..or is it oxidized iron that is the problem?
In that case, IP6
>>It can be seen from the above-described combination of Allergy Research Group nutritional supplements supply nutrients that help down-regulate various aspects of the NO/ONOO- cycle. Many act as antioxidants, lowering oxidative stress, blocking oxidative chain reactions, and in some cases scavenging such oxidants as peroxynitrite and superoxide or acting to increase superoxide dysmutase activity. Some agents act to help restore tetrahydrobiopterin (BH4) levels and thus lower partial uncoupling of the nitric oxide synthases. Some agents lower nitric oxide levels. Some agents act in various ways to restore energy metabolism. Some act to lower excitotoxicity including excessive NMDA activity. Some act to lower certain inflammatory aspects including lowering NF-kappa B activity or lowering inflammatory prostaglandin synthesis. Thus all of the various aspects of the NO/ONOO- cycle mechanism as I have proposed it should be lowered to at least a certain extent.>>>
# Title: Rift Valley fever virus (RVF)
# Description: Used as a biological weapon;
# fever, edema, hypotension, vasculitis, myalgias, and encephalitis, including headache, coma, and seizures, backpain, dizziness, and extreme weight loss
# Severe cases of RVF fall into three categories: 1) Liver necrosis with hemorrhaging 2) Retinitis with visual impairment 3) Meningoencephalitis
Thanks JM for posting that for me....I can't type much tonight, b/c I'm just exhausted, but I will later on. The weakness/exhaustion and low blood pressure and low blood volume seriously seemed to get worse a/b 2 months ago when I was supping a few Ornithine daily during parasite cleansing.
My N.O. and Ammonia are always off the charts high when the ND tests me, but he always says I have to work on my stress level b/c it's only due to stress and that's causing me the inflammation. I don't agree completely. I've researched it and sent you the stuff from Dr.Poll, so we can see the N.O. is not just a/b stress!!
I'm just scared b/c I don't know what to do in the short term...obviously long term I will need some type of protocal to soak up the N.O that is so high in my body. But in the short term, what now....I muscle tested strongly that I DO NOT need ornithine right now. I'm so drugged feeling, I can feel the stuff in my brain. It is hard to keep my eyes opened during the day. The main stressed organ I tested high on yesterday was: Kidneys and mitochondria.....but the only thing he muscle tested that I needed was a Thymic formula from http://www.logosnutritionals.com
It makes me sleepy. I don't know why, maybe the Niacinimide??
I do have the source natural MAG malate on hand, just don't know how many to take and I muscle tested a slight pull toward it, but not super strong.
sheepishly I admit I do not understand the diff between the blood electrification and the Zapper. I've been using the zapper, isn't that the same premise? I'm so not techincal and terribly loaded with N.O. so keep that in mind. lol!!
How would BE lower N.O and ammonia anyways? Wouldn't it just kill more bugs and if my liver/kidneys are super weak and have to filter out that junk the BE kills, wouldn't it be best to work on strengthening the kidneys and somehow excreting the high N.O before doing anymore electromedicine? I may be totally wrong on that line of thinking, just share with me so I'll hopefully understand the logic behind the "madness" :)
I want to try the Godzilla! My only "wondering" is..how do you know where the "bug" is so you can get on either side of it with the wires? :)
And, do you feel anything with it?
BTW Newport...I had to take another look at the EPFX info because it seemed like Rift Valley Fever was on there on the high end, and it was! I didn't know at that time, that my blood pressure was as low as it showed recently.
I have an appt Friday for more MSAS testing, and muscle testing. I'll put it on the list for one of the specific's to check for.
A couple of things I'd like Newport to give his thoughts on too...
When I started with the Alternative Dr, he had me do an extensive blood test, as a marker test. Like he told me, by the time something is showing up on a Dr's blood test, it's turned into a "condition" they then give their drugs etc for. He said that with muscle testing/biofeedback computer testing, things are showing up on the "cellular level" before they have gone on to be full fledged problems.
Well...I had several things already going on that the MD's had not picked up on, even in all their testing they had done.
Not only was my liver showing damage was happening, but I had some other high numbers, indicating also that my heart and blood weren't doing so well either.
Doing nothing else but bowel cleansing, liver flushing (and liver supplements he had me on) and killing parasites, the next marker blood test, 8 months later, showed a big change in numbers. For the first time in 3 years, the liver enzymes were also in the normal range.
>>>C reactive protein way down- from being over the high end of 3.0 down to .58. Fibrinogen was a big improvement- from being over the high end past 423 down to the normal range of 274. (193-423 scale)>>>
I know from what PH has told me, that she has also had high Fibrinogen...to the point of having to have shots in the stomach for them :(
Some of the things I'm seeing about Nitric Oxide, are that in many situations, it is actually indicated.
In the case where fibrin is high, fibrin is sticky, and causes a greater risk for blood clotting/strokes....
>>>Blood thinners force platelets and fibrin to ignore clotting signals from the endothelium. When a person is having a stroke these drugs are life-saving because the blood vessels, platelets and fibrin are getting the message to clot in the wrong place at the wrong time.
*** One new class of drugs triggers the release of nitric oxide to open the blood vessels. Nitric oxide also helps the blood vessels, platelets and fibrin proteins communicate clearly. To prevent blood vessel miscommunication in the first place, high nitric oxide levels are needed.***
Nitric oxide is made from nitrogen; nitrogen comes from fruits and vegetables. Eating up to nine servings of fruits and vegetables every day will make your clotting system very smart! Plant-based foods have been proven to improve your health – including the health of your circulatory system>>>
>>>Other enzymes that are being experimented with for Lyme sufferers with gut biofilm include: Lumbrokinase, Rechts-Regulat and serrapeptase. These latter enzymes, incidentally, are also widely used for hypercoagulation in Lyme. (So you might be able to kill two birds with one stone here; that is, break down biofilm while treating hypercoagulation).>>>
"Hypercoagulation in Lyme"....remember when Newport said he hadn't known your blood was like molasses (something to that affect)...and that the Blood Electrifying (or Godzilla) would help with that? That's what he's talking about.
I figured out ammonia being an issue for me because of the reaction to the glutamine (and from your help in showing the role of a sick liver with high ammonia).
I don't know what kind of tests they were both found to be high on for PH, but I don't think it was medical tests. It was through an ND.
I've never looked into what high, or low NO does, until PH had the concern that she was making NO worse because of taking Ornithine for the ammonia.
I know that in the natural Urea Cycle (also called Ornithine Cycle)
>>>The urea cycle is a series of reactions that converts toxic ammonium into the nontoxic
nitrogen excretion production urea. The urea cycle requires ornithine as a
carbon backbone, and aspartate and free ammonium as nitrogen donors.>>>
>>>Urea is the major nitrogen excretion product in humans.>>
Ah...so if the liver is not able to do it's job to convert the toxic ammonia into Urea (which requires ornithine), and the Urea Cycle is broken...Urea is the major way nitrogen is excreted through the kidneys...so not only is ammonia not being excreted, but neither is nitrogen.
My N.D. tests my urine ph and saliva ph and tests the urine for levels of ammonia and N.O. also tests sugars. Then he tests a drop of blood and looks at it in a live blood cell analysis.
He has everything hooked up to his computer and it spits out a report based on all the levels. But each time I've been (in 2 years) my N.O and Ammonia are the highest they possibly could be. He only thinks it is an inflammation marker and stress indicator, but I only think that is a teensy piece of the pie! My kidneys are always one of the top stressed organs in the list. My blood is slightly less sticky than last year and red blood cells are looking a little healthier (thanks to greensuper food and good B vitamins) BUT the N.O. levels have me worried.
When I got home Monday that's when I started researching N.O. and it's effects in chronic type illnesses. That's when I found the Dr.Poll (biochemist) site. It's a bit over my head, but makes sense (of what I can understand)....Just don't know where to start now how to reduce the body load of both N.O and ammonia.
Interesting JM a/b the Urea cycle....isn't that indicated in GOUT?!! I've often in the past couple years had very sharp pains in my right Big toe!! I just thought it was an oddity and tried to ignore it. Great, so my urea cycle is messed up!!
I've taken some Lumbrokinase in the past. It is made from ground up silk worms! Kinda gross if you've been fighting parasites. I threw mine out last year. I'd stick with Serrapeptase or Nattokinase b/c Natto is from soybeans, not worms lol!! :)
a sick liver also puts stress on weak kidneys, because they have to work together for the Urea Cycle to take place.
but Uric acid (which causes gout), and Urea are talking about different things.
Urea is what the ammonia is supposed to be turned into in the liver, and even if you aren't taking ornithine supplements, ornithine is a natural part of the urea cycle too.
>>>The liver produces urea in the urea cycle as a waste product of the digestion of protein
The test Newport mentioned, the BUN test, would show the Urea cycle, and if it's out of whack.
>>>The blood urea nitrogen (BUN) test is a measure of the amount of nitrogen in the blood in the form of urea, and a measurement of renal function. Urea is a substance secreted by the liver, and removed from the blood by the kidneys.>>>
My farmer/rancher husband was helping me understand this better last night too (he also took chemistry that I got out of, and don't understand)...
One of the ways he naturally fertilizes the fields for nitrogen..is he puts cows on them through the winter..the urea is putting nitrogen into the ground.
Old timer's always put manure on their gardens for fertilizer too.
Have you read where Serrapeptase also comes from? It was discovered in the intestines of the silkworms. I know, I had the same thoughts when I read Newport's post about them working on biofilms...but the way they are made commercially today, they would have to have alot of silk worms--they use a different method today.
But..think of the proteolytic enzymes as being little pac man guys, cleaning up gunk (including dead parasites/bacterias), besides clearing out the biofilms the darned things can hide behind and not be hit by the immune system.
>>Serrapeptase is a naturally occurring, physiological agent with no inhibitory effects on prostaglandins and is devoid of gastrointestinal side effects.>>
(which can be a problem with bromelain and/or papain)
Serrapeptase is a proteolytic enzyme isolated from the micro-organism Serratia E15. This enzyme is naturally processed commercially today through fermentation and was discovered in the silkworm intestine.
Serrapeptase digests non-living tissue, blood clots, cysts, and arterial plaque and inflammation in all forms. The late German physician, Dr. Hans Nieper, used Serrapeptase to treat arterial blockage in his coronary patients. Serrapeptase protects against stroke and is reportedly more effective and quicker than EDTA Chelation treatments in removing arterial plaque.>>> http://www.serrapeptase.info/
Proteolytic enzymes is all that Zymex2 is...for that very reason. Yes, they do work for getting through the tough skins of the parasites to kill them. Especially if taken in between meals, and away from protein...
Not to give you the heebie jeebies...but worms are protein.
I haven't used these other proteolytic enzymes yet, but the bad thing about the bromelain/papain/ficin (which are what is in the Zymex 2), is that they can also cause gastro problems, especially when taken on an empty stomach.
But, think of the proteolytic enzymes as being the soldiers at the front of the line that penetrate the enemy, so the following soldiers can do their job to wipe them out...and then the proteolytic enzymes also come behind and do the clean-up work. :)