hi Chris, i've not been following this thread, or the forum much at all, lately, but I wanted to respond to this statement of yours:
"Fasting of yesterday is no different to today: has the chemistry/physiology of the body changed in the last 150 years? No."
not to disagree with you -in principle- but rather to note that there's a substantial piece of information missing from the picture you paint(edit: with that statement). There *is* a difference in the human body in that it is both subjected to far more toxins of the non-organic sort,(think of melamine, as just one) and, it's more likely to be nutritionally-depleted, considering our soils have been stripped of -i don't know the exact figure, but, to be conservative, about 40 percent of the minerals that food of "yesterday" would have grown from. Consider too, a greater range of produce, that no longer has to travel the slow route (like on ships), and you have people in general eating 'out of season' food, that is incorrectly balanced, since food best 'fits' the bodies that live where it grows:I don't mean this in the etheric sense(though that does have great relevance), but in terms of sodium/potassium, non-protein nitrogen or "funny protein", etc. Edit: the result of this out of season eating is that what would normally alkalize the body, in fact does the opposite. More acidity requires more minerals. The body tries to use the calcium as if it were the missing minerals, resulting in all kinds of problems, physically, chemically, hormonally... it's a far more complex picture than I have a grasp of; but I know enough to do a little better than give myself trouble. :-)
When you have bodies ingesting any number of bizarre substances, some of which
require complex methods of chelating to be 'liberated', then you have a picture quite different from the one of 75 years ago, and so on. Some ' CureZone Experts ' theorize that anyone born after 1990 will likely only live to around age forty. This grim forecast is made on the basis of -among other things- some of the constituents that make up chemtrails, as tested and reported on by one lab in Victoria, B.C.
I don't want to be discouraging people from what I have seen to be the benefits of water fasting, but just to get a little clearer perspective on this notion that the human body has not changed, chemically, physiologically. Leaving aside the discussion of chemicals, pesticides, drug residues in drinking water, widespread MSG, (on "natural" foods like lettuce, too) and on and on; just thinking of the mineral content of today's fruits and vegetables, even the organic ones, Brix-testing with a refractometer will tell a very different tale to the one of times past.
Even if a person is taking mineral supplements, there are enough complexities in the delicate instrument that is the human body, that chances are one is not even assimilating much that goes in. As well, so much of the naturopathic world of supplements is as fake as the allopathic medications that "manage" illness.
So, I would say, a lack of mineral reserves is a much more likely scenario for anyone going into a water fast, these days, as compared to say fifty years ago. (and as you know, a lack of mineral reserves is a problem,in, or out of a water fast). As for 150 years ago, we are talking about a very different body to the one of today. Far less complex foreign residues and far more of what Macrobiotics say, is based on: eating according to what grows where you live. That's something that magically nature has worked out for us. Milk, just for example, actually used to be far less the poison it is now. Used to even be 'healthful', as I'm sure some Hygienists would agree. Not so now. Now, with homogenizing, pasteurizing, fake food and drugs for the cows and what all, milk today is a lot like slow death. (Unless you can find good raw milk.) Personally, I've never drunk it. Don't like it, but I do like yogurt, at times.
Anyway, this is some of why I am growing alarmed at many of these "i need help quick" posts that have the distinct sound of a lack of information; a lack of interest in reading and study, (reading a couple posts doesn't count) adds up to not much comprehension of the way the water-fasting body works, let alone an appreciation of the fine balance of minerals that are the bedrock, literally, of the body.
The good news is, that water fasting *can* do some lovely tinkering that amounts to a good tuneup. And maybe the big 'miracle' of a well-thought out water fast is that one is naturally led to well-mineralized food, afterward. Like a newfound love of apples...(That is, and this is important: unless the water fast is just a "symptom" of an eating disorder). We shouldn't oversimplify the whole thing, nor bend the truth to make a point. And i think your statement was more in the spirit of rejoinder (to anya) than up-to-the-minute fact.
edit: just to clarify, after reading Chris's response to this, that there are countless poeple who care about health and don't have the resources (in terms of understanding, or financially)to buy the very finest mineral supplements, nor to eat organic. I'm talking about the general populace suffering the negatives. That one person always buys organic and takes the finest orthomolecular supplements is wonderful -- and fortunate, but the fact is, that's not an option for millions upon millions.
I do not agree with your post, and for the following reasons.......
The chemistry/physiology of the body which I referred to has not changed: only the environment/ecology in which we live has done so, and although food is not as nutritious as it used to be even just 40 years ago, the body adapts to this environment, otherwise we would be all suffering from one form of nutritional deficiency or another.
So it is indeed true to say that..........
"Fasting of yesterday is no different to today: has the chemistry/physiology of the body changed in the last 150 years? No."
Yes. The body is subjected to far more toxins than has ever been the case before, but this only means that it takes the body longer to cleanse and heal itself from these impurities.
Again I do not agree with you: we have a far greater variety of food available to us today than ever before, and where this variety means more and not less nutrition available to our bodies despite the depletion in our soils.
Consider also that within the last several centuries man relied mostly on locally grown produce and where there was far more scarcity in times of crop failures and the resultant food shortages, and where fasting was forced upon local populations such as in the great Irish famine. Did these people suffer from food shortages and what they termed as starvation? Yes. Of course they did and where they also suffered from nutritional deficiencies.
However, Global transportation means that more of natures bounty is available to those who want it, and where in the western world this is far more varied than has ever been the case in history, so your argument doesn't really hold water i'm afraid.
Out of season food though still ripens and where fruit and vegetables are still alkaline even when they are ripened in this way out of season.
Your comment that curezone "experts" state that anyone born after 1990 will only live to be 40 years of age is ridiculous: the body is infinitely adaptable in accommodating to its environment and surroundings: take for example the case of a smoker, where this is known to cause lung and other cancers. It takes years for the body to be so abused by the tar and other chemicals within tobacco to become diseased, as the body adapts to the poisons ingested; this was highlighted by the cause and effect of disease and tolerance of the body to external influences as espoused by Shelton, Tilden and all Natural Hygienists. One of these Laws is "THE LAW OF VITAL ACCOMMODATION" which is too lengthy to go into any detail here, but is described amply in Sheltons book "HUMAN LIFE its PHILOSOPHY & LAWS."
The laws that govern our being enable the body to adapt and tolerate whatever environmental toxins/poisons that it has been exposed to, and where fasting is the only way of eliminating these, albeit over a longer period of time than was accomplished previously in a cleaner ecological environment. So my statement that fasting has the same benefits today as of yesterday still rings true, because the chemistry/physiology of the body has NOT changed.........only the length of time in accomplishing its goal of cleansing and healing has changed.
The mineral content of food is something to be concerned about as revealed by Dr Joel Wallach and others, and which is why I rely on the organic supplementation of my diet, and why Orthomolecular Medicine has gained such a foot hold. The assimilation of these supplements has been shown to be up to 98% or more absorbable by the body in this approach to health-recovery.
Again I do not agree with you about mineral reserves: did mouseclick have a problem with his mineral reserves during his 27 day fast, or lulu have a problem with hers on her extended fast, or I in the the late 1970's on my two extended fasts when I lived on a malnourished diet previously for most of 24 years? No. I don't think so.
No one is bending the truth Chiron or oversimplifying anything especially as I am a WYSIWYG sort of person, and tells it as it is.
The statement I made was not a rejoinder to Anya but merely a statement of my beliefs born out of experience and the experience of others in the study of the human frame and how it reacts to fasting.......over the last 30 years.
I only deal with facts Chiron, and which are as up to the minute in information as you will find anywhere.
My beef with Anya is her negativity and the disruption she has brought to this forum and where she has a fixation on credentials, and who disregards with impunity and cynicism those who "google for answers". She is no expert on fasting, and where this is a water fasting support forum for those who did not know it.
Chris, I think you have really overreacted to my post--which was not an attempt to create a case against you, or against water fasting, or even to state that you were not partly correct with that statement. But you have responded to me as though I were angry with you, and I am not, at all.
I simply presented another facet of reality. By the way--read carefully and you will see that I did not say ALL CureZone Experts , and I did say "theorize". ( edit: maybe I'm using the term incorrectly. I mean someone who has a forum here, and has earned the respect of more than a couple people -who themselves might be considered fairly expert- people genuinely seeking good health. It seems like I may have inadvertently tarred some unknown (?) individuals with a nasty brush. When the term made a live link, I was a bit surprised). In any case, I don't think it's really that far out a theory actually, if people carry on eating SAD and taking the vaccination route; the allopathic route; the non water-fasting route. I'm wondering if you actually read my post, or mainly reacted to it. Maybe it was the mention of chemtrails that has roused your ire. Now I know for sure that i came in on the tale end of another 'bad scene' involving you and anya, that i mostly missed, thankfully.
The great availability of more produce does have its upside of course; but I see no reason to debate any further with you: wasn't even aware that I was doing that;it feels more like combat, where you seem defensive of maintaining some unimpeachable position or other. If you don't agree with me, that's fine; but I made several points i think might be worth some consideration. All is hardly black and white. I even agree with you on several subjects and stances. :-)
I apologize to you if the tone of my reply was a bit on the harsh/defensive side. I suppose with no heating here and other burdens weighing heavily upon my shoulders at present, I'm a little on the testy side, and with some family members having their nerves frayed at the edges as well doesn't help matters, so my apologies again.
This is not my normal approach to any replies and where I shall exercise a great deal more restraint in the future.
I liked its critique/comments and where you or anyone else should feel free to question any of my posts which usually brings more information to the fore to the benefit of all (hopefully).
I am glad you responded to Chiron's post. For some reason her post really depressed me, especially the part about the people born after 1990 not making it past 40 years old.
I appreciated Chiron posting it though, but was happy that you had explanations for why it was incorrect. There is so much depressing news now about health and rising cancer rates etc so it's good to know that there is some hope!
I know Anya, and you did explain well when we chatted. And I did have a glass or 3 of wine, as I confessed, lol!
I guess the other side of the coin is that most conventional qualified doctors do dangerous things too, and most people come here looking for suggestions and alternative treatments. Plus pharmaceutical companies are always pushing drugs, and so on. And I know many things here, such as EFT, you disagree with. And you won't do online diagnosis, and probably no qualified doctor from any field would, especially when half the time you don't even know a persons sex let alone their age and medical history.
So actually it is really good I guess that you are studying Chinese medicine, because probably that is what is needed, to bring back traditional treatments into modern medicine, so trust can build up in it again. I know acupuncture works for sure, I am living proof, never smoked a cigarette since I had it done.
So one day maybe it will all turn full circle, and we can have healthcare professionals that we can trust.
Don't know about EFT, but I do know about water fasting for weight loss from personal experience.
I used to think the good thing about fasting is that it's safe for everyone, because you don't take any supplements. But I now know this is not so, in fact to your credit you pointed out we have "regular customers" stretching spans of years, and that wasn't quite right. That opened my eyes I have to admit.
It's certainly worrying that people may be using this as a drop in lounge for EDs, and that fasting is part of the ED process, worse when you consider that EDs are shrouded in dishonesty and self denial.
I think Curezone is good for people sharing experiences though. But sometimes you have to read between the lines yes?
You have more experience with fasting for weight loss than anybody I have been able to find on the forum and your story inspired me to fast for weight loss. I completed 7 days of fasting that I would never have thought possible if not for reading your story.
I believe we have to be careful about the advice we give to people who just pop in with questions like how much weight can I lose, and how fast can I lose it. Without knowing anything about that person its hard to know if they are suffering from and ED, so yes I think sometimes we do have to read between the lines. Especially since a trait of people with an ED is masking that very fact.
So in light of all that I think your questions were valid.
Yes you know about WF for weightloss and that is where is begins and ends. And kudos to you about your weightloss, but its not really rocket science. NO ingestion of calories = obvious weight loss. Lower ingestion of calories than what is needed = keeping said weight off. Magic.
My point is, asking all these questions as if you are a doctor really is a no no. Because if someone does have an issue (which how would you know over the net) how would you be able to deal with it?
For example you had no clue about ketones and diabetes and gave an uneducated reply, since you are a mod here and people look up to you, you do have a responsibility to keep your mouth shut when you cannot give valid and educated responses, because people do look on to you for support since you are said 'expert' same goes for the other mod.
I just find it sickening that people do not question other people, alternative or traditional medicine, everyone should be questioning people instead of acting like complete sheep.
I wish someone would tell me what we're arguing about here. Nobody has given anyone any advice in this thread. The person didn't answer the questions and I'm sure if they would have and had a medical problem nobody would answer except to say they should seek a professional for advice. Can we lighten up here please?
The original posters question had to do with a lack of motivation, which might have been caused by a medical condition. The questions were valid. Nobody wants to motivate someone to fast if we don't know the background of that person.
Does it make you feel superior to put people down? What do you gain from this behavior? All we hear from you is a never ending description of your qualifications and how sick you are of people diagnosing. Well thats good for you, I'm sure your proud of yourself, as you should be. But the fact remains that no one here is pretending to be a doctor. No one here is offering medical advice. No one here is acting like CureZone police.
The thing is, I have never seen you offer any kind of support to anyone in this forum. The only thing you seem to do is cause discontent. It's as if your waiting for someone to say something you can argue about. If you think this forum is a joke why are posting here? Why even come to a site that you consider to be a joke? Do you come here and start things like this to see how much trouble you can cause because you secretly enjoy it?
Everything you've posted in this thread is a non-issue. Show me where someone gave medical advice in this thread. You are creating hypothetical situations like, periods, ovary issues, fibroid cysts, clotting, and hormonal issues and jumping all over people as if medical advice was given for those issues. Those things have nothing to do with the question that started this thread, they are a non-issue, not relevant to this thread.
You sound unreasonably frustrated. At what, this forum? Please. I think there's a deeper issue here. It seem you're projecting you own anxieties and self haltered onto others. And this is a "safe" place for you to do that without having to face others in reality. When you mentioned this forum to be a "joke" please remember, you are a part of this forum! After all, you have essentially contributed to this forum with your time, energy, thoughts and ideas. It's time to find inner peace.
You are absolutely right! I'm a licensed clinical psychologist and one of a handful of people on CureZone who ARE qualified to make such diagnosis and I would never DREAM of trying to do so from posts on a website... let alone moving posts into forums that suggest such a diagnosis! Not only is it unethical... it is also punitive and a sign of paternalism at it's worse! Furthermore... rather than 'helping'... it has just the opposite effect... which may even contribute to the very problem to begin with.
Should we now police bookstores and libraries to make sure that skinny women don't get a hold of books on fasting too? Or obtain posters contact information so we can send someone to do an intervention?
Mouseclick... should we transfer your posts to the AA Forum because you indicated that you had had 'a drink or 3' when you posted your comment?
My previous objection to the moving Lauray's posts to another forum were not because I was uninformed or naive about the POSSIBILITY of what could be going on. My objection was because of the nature in which it was done and the ridiculous excuses that were being made to support it. So what if a person's posts contain a word count beyond what someone wants to read?! Don't click on their bloody posts then! And if anyone is concerned about giving advice to particular posters... then DON'T! It's as simple as that!
I know of plenty of psychiatrist that would eagerly tag any of you with the diagnosis of a 'mental illness' just for the fact that you are FASTING! There are many in the health care community that believe that a lot of what is discussed on CureZone is unhealthy... and even dangerous! Should the whole site be shut down?
Without a doubt there are and will be posters on this website that come here for any number of reasons.... including ways to learn to harm and damage themselves. Are there people on the Fasting Forums who have issues with eating? Of course there are... and there is nothing that will stop them until they are ready to deal with it themselves.
By the way... for those of you who were so quick to diagnose Lauray with an ED (and that's exactly what was done by moving her posts to the forum for it)... are you aware that CONTROL is one of the major issues of those who have been diagnosed with an 'Eating Disorder'? What effect do you suppose it has to force your views down someone's throat when they are already wrestling with issues of control?
It was anyajb who pointed out that we seem to be getting a lot of odd visitors here.
I wouldn't be bothered if my post on wine to moved to the AA forum, but maybe the Columbo bits should be moved to the jokes forum.
The truth is this is an amateur site and people don't get paid to do things, if people want better advice they should see a professional, as per the CureZone disclaimer. http://curezone.org/forums/disclaimer.asp
I have posted since day one a lot of people have some "serious issues" vaguely, but I am not diagnosing nor have bombarded them once when they have said numerous times no leave me alone. I let them do their thing, and will not say 'you can do it'. This is a public forum.
Basically me saying hey.. fasting and then yo/ yoing binging and fasting is a serious issue, and that people shouldn't be supporting that. Because fasting will not at the end of the day cure an eating disorder. And everyone, was arguing with me someone who has struggled and recovered from an ED and have worked with ED patients.
and if I don't like someone's post I don't read it. I don't bully them out of a forum.
You took it upon yourself to start playing police.. and having FAQ's and questioning everyone who posts now. So when someone questions you, be ready to answer.
Unless you want to abuse your power like the other mod and say "its arguing with the moderator" thus breaking Forum Rules .