Is it my imagination or does anyone else feel "acidic" or more achy when they take the 2 days of ultra phos drops in apple cider? I was feeling fairly pain free and when I started my regimen of the drops in cider I felt more acidic....bad toe started aching and low back has dull pain. Does the ultra phos actually make one more acid?? Anyone else get this reaction? Any ways to alkalize (such as lemon in water) to counteract the acidic feeling??
Ultraphosphoric acid is one of the MOST acidic things you can put into your body. It WILL soften liver/gallstones (natural malic acid from apples is much safer methinks)...orthosphosphoric acid (in the form of OrthoPhos or Phosfood) will completely dissolve a nail! (I know someone who tried it once and couldn't tolerate it, then did some research and used the bottle he had to test what he'd read...and it did TOTALLY dissolve a nail). I also tried it once (as I'm a huge fan of Dr. Kelley's because my mother-in-law was cured of Stage IV terminal metasticized liver cancer by attending Dr. Kelley's underground clinics back in the late 1970's). Thank heavens, we now have the internet for researching (unlike many of the great healers of this century), and we can learn of possible dangers/risks in their clinical experiences & protocols and make make suitable adjustments or substitutions in minutes or hours (that would have taken them years to find).
Below is some information I recently compiled on ultraphosphoric acid.
It is used by dentists to etch/remove tooth enamel (before bonding other things to the teeth).
Phosphoric acid is used in dentistry and orthodontics as an etching solution, to clean and roughen the surfaces of teeth where dental appliances or fillings will be placed. Phosphoric acid is also an ingredient in over-the-counter anti-nausea medications that also contain high levels of sugar (glucose and fructose). It should not be used by diabetics without consultation with a doctor. This acid is also used in teeth whiteners to eliminate any plaque that may be on your teeth.
Pronunciation: fos-fōr′ik as′id Orthophosphoric acid; H3PO4; a strong acid of industrial importance, m.p. 42.35°C; dilute solutions have been used as urinary acidifiers and as dressings to remove necrotic debris. In dentistry, it constitutes about 60% of the liquid used in zinc phosphate and silicate cements; solutions in varying concentrations are used to etch enamel and dentin surfaces prior to application of various types of resins.
"Modern medicine" may well be defined as "the experimental study of what
happens when poisonous chemicals are placed into malnourished human bodies."
A. Saul Contributing Editor,
Journal of Orthomolecular Medicine
Orthophosphoric acid can only be obtained pure in the crystalline state and slowly undergoes dehydration to diphosphoric acid. Crystalline phosphoric acid has a hydrogen-bonded layer structure in which each molecule is attached to 6 others. Impure phosphoric acid has its main application in fertilisers, and also in the synthesis of pure phosphoric acid. In turn pure phosphoric acid is used in food, detergents, pharmaceuticals and metal treatment (e.g. pickling, cleaning, rust-proofing, polishing). Car bodies and electrical appliances are all protected against rust and blistering by the presence of a phosphatised undercoat. Phosphoric acid is used in the production of activated carbon, and may be used in soft drinks to give a sour taste. "Thermal" phosphoric acid is made by oxidation of phosphorus in the presence of water vapour whilst "wet" acid is made by treating rock phosphate with sulphuric acid. Phosphoric acid is added to food to enhance the antioxidant effects of other compounds present, and also as an acidity regulator. Typical products include carbonated beverages, processed meat, chocolate, fats and oils, beer, jam, sweets. Too much in diet leads to loss of calcium in bones and onset of osteoporosis. In fizzy drinks it allows more carbon dioxide concentration without bottle burst. Soft drinks, beer, cheese products, snacks, and most processed foods. Other names: orthophosphoric acid. Phosphoric acid is banned in organic food and drinks. Phosphoric acid is a highly acidic ingredient in cola drinks, used to offset the extreme sweetness. The way the kidneys excrete it is by bonding it with calcium taken from the bones, which can then leave the bones porous and brittle, and increase the risk of osteoporosis. A study, published in the Archives of Paediatric and Adolescent Medicine in 2000, showed that athletic teenage girls who consume cola drinks have been found to have five times the risk of bone fractures of those athletic girls who do not consume cola drinks. Acceptable Daily Intake: Up to 70 mg/kg body weight. Phosphoric acid and phosphates can normally be consumed by all religious groups, vegans and vegetarians. Although animal bones are mainly made up of phosphates, commercial phosphate is not made from bones.
I realize that Dr. Kelley's liver flush protocol calls for OrthoPhos (as does Doc Sutters), and so I realize this might seem to be 'bitter pill to swallow' for some...although I believe we should rejoice when find new truths that may possibly replace erroneous old beliefs. For what it's worth to anyone reading: I've always used Kelley's protocol --minus the OrthoPhos and the huge amount of Epsom Salts in the coffee enema, plus a couple of tablespoons of fresh ginger root juice in the olive oil to prevent nausea & increase the flow of bile; I've sometimes prepped with malic acid in the form of Apple Cider Vinegar or Apple Cider; I've never had a stone 'stuck' and I've had a few stones that were well over an inch in length/girth and neither myself or my husband has ever experienced nausea. But personal experiences can vary greatly, and even someone with dozens/hundred of liver flushes under their belt cannot predict how a protocol or chemical will react in someone elses body. Again, it's a huge blessing that we ALL have the internet for doing factual research - as we can easily read & learn and make the adjustments that we feel are necessary and safe (or safER).
Dr. Kelley warned that one should rinse their mouth with baking soda every time they put orthophosphoric acid in their mouth, to avoid degredation of tooth enamel...and since dentists use it regularly to eat away enamel, I think that recommendation is essential.
After 5-6 hours of research devoted to orthosphosphoric acid (and my own personal experience of my body immediately rejecting it the first time I tried it), it's now my personal understanding and belief that this substance should not be ingested into the body, especially when we have safer alternatives that will soften stones just as effectively...even if it is tolerated by some people. I especially feel this is true for anyone with dental issues/pain/cavitations, any suspected bone weakness or osteoporosis and ANY type of digestive disturbance (especially diarrhea, IBS, colitis, hiatal hernia, ulceration or Crohnes Disease). I always prefer "nature" to chemicals...unless there's no natural equivalent (such as the case with Epsom Salts). For example, Dr. Schulzes clinical work had his patients liver flushing with a blend of olive oil & lemon juice...with no OrthoPhos, no ES, and nothing 'chemical' in nature whatsoever. And he managed to save almost 10,000 people from incurable diseases.
As always, if ANYbody can factually show that my research is faulty or erroneous, I sincerely welcome the opportunity to replace a falsehood with a truth; the world of 'alternative medicine' is riddled with oft repeated falsehoods, erroneous information and unscrupulous sellers & healers who care more about their bottom line & egos than they do truly natural, safe protocols & products...and I never want to join their ranks!
What I haven't learned or found (or understood)? It seems orthophosphoric acid is sometimes recommended to acidify the body, but yet it will lower levels of uric acid (perhaps is the phosphorus that does that?). Apparently there's a condition where the body is too alkaline (which is hard for me to fathom and may be 'allopathic based research'???). I haven't found solid proof of the pH of orthophosphoric acid (but I saw one site that indicated it was 1.5 - yikes!); and I don't know the dilution of pure orthosphosphoric acid (or what it's diluted with, if it IS diluted) in the products commonly recommended for liver flushing).
I always prefer "nature" to chemicals...unless there's no natural equivalent (such as the case with Epsom Salts). But Dr. Schulzes clinical work had his patients liver flushing with a blend of olive oil & lemon juice...with no OrthoPhos, no ES, and nothing 'chemical' in nature whatsoever (except herbal tinctures or teas). And he managed to save almost 10,000 people from incurable diseases.
And that concludes this *info bomb* on orthophosphoric acid. I hope the information is accepted in the spirit it's intended...and I hope CZ hurries up and fixes this email notification glitch thing so I can start receiving email notifications of replies! grrrr.
When used intelligently, orthophosphoric acid can do wonders and is great to balance autonomic nervous system and help calcium metabolism and energy production. It is also great to help dissolve gallstones as you mention - I've used it with no problems. Care must be taken after drinking to ensure teeth don't get harmed, but tell that to the millions of people who drinking CocaCola/Pepsi at much higher levels than recommended dosage of phosphood/ortho phos (they are after all phosphoric acid and sugar and will too dissolve a nail). The Coke liver flush uses this knowledge to dissolve gallstones as well.
Interesting pros and cons for Ultraphos.
Personally, I am not planning to take a huge amount that has a huge concentration for a very long length of time like every day for years on end like people drink coke and the like.
I think Doc says the concentration in this Ultraphos is not enough to damage the bones by leaching calcium out of them.
Personally, too, I would rather do a liver flush with the Ultraphos when I am passing stones half as big as a pullet egg where the ES may not be opening up my bile duct enough for them to pass. I passed about a pint of these stones around my 29th to 31st liver flush without any problems. Then around 8 of the black hard marble-like gallstones. I would hate to think my bile duct wouldn't have opened enough for these to pass. The coke flush has been a very smooth flush for me without the dangers of stuck stones. I did 1 Clark flush with the ES and found it to be very weakening and dehydrating. This can be and is a problem for diabetics.
I am diabetic and have been for over 10 years now. I am seeing the blood sugar numbers go down rather than up with no problems with the Ultraphos.
Just a personal testimony as to what might happen in diabetics. No problems.
I would rather spend 7-8 months doing this type of flush than end up with liver cancer. I believe my liver had just about stopped working when I came on here. The liver function blood tests as well as my blood sugar and LDL cholesterol were going in the pathological range fast. They are normal now according to my last report that was done in April of this year. All except for the LDL which is a little over the 100 mark that I plan to see go down in the near future.
My health is going up instead of down and I feel very grateful. This is an understatement.
If I want to alkalinize, I can take some of the green foods. By cleaning out my colon and adding the olive oil every night, I am alkalinizing my body, anyway. The healthy body WILL return to its alkaline state. The body's acidity is caused by not being able to assimilate the calcium from the colon because of the junk on the walls of the colon. You can find this on Doc's CD.
And, yes, there are conditions where the body is too alkaline.
Maybe in the future we will find something that works equivalent to the Ultraphos, but right now I see no health problems in myself from anything I have done with it thru 31 liver flushes.
I choose to believe Doc when he says that there is not enough of the phosphoric acid in the Ultraphos to do a body any damage. I haven't experienced any. Maybe taking some extra calcium that now can be assimilated would be a good idea while taking the Ultraphos. ???? Anybody know? Calcium is responsible for alkalinizing the body.
Here is some more information I found on CZ if anybody is interested: http://curezone.com/forums/fm.asp?i=64444
>>>orthophosphoric acid can do wonders and is great to balance autonomic nervous system and help calcium metabolism and energy production.<<<
Could you please point me to the places/site where you obtained this information...especially what you're stating about the autonomic nervous system and energy production? I read a blurb on a sellers site about the calcium metabolism (and something else was mentioned somewhere else in my searches regarding calcium), but both pieces of information I read weren't documented in any way. And of course, in light of this: "Too much in diet leads to loss of calcium in bones and onset of osteoporosis", I'm obviously led to wonder HOW orthophosphoric acid affects calcium metabolism. If it breaks down the calcium in 'rock supplements' the same way it effects calcium in bones, then it's 'valid' to say "orthosphoric acid helps to metabolize calcium"...but there's bound to be (and there are) more natural/safe ways to assimilate calcium that taking something that is known to cause bones to degrade.
For me, it's imperative to learn, firstly, if these statements are valid; and secondly if they are, then by what action are they true, and how does this 'energy production', 'calcium metabolism' and 'balance to the autonomic nervous system' occur. That's the kind of knowledge I/anyone needs to get to the truth of how something interacts in the body. Heck, it's true & valid that caffeine, cocaine & Ritalin help 'energy production' and all kinds of effects to the autonomic nervous system can be seen when taking psych pharmaceuticals (and many other dangerous drugs & substances). Hence, a statement about the action of a substance can be factual, but that doesn't mean it's healthy or natural.
Please don't think I'm accusing or attacking you -or anyone- personally; I'm simply attempting to validate the 'claim'. Knowledge & understanding is vital to natural health & healing, and we've been hoodwinked for SO long by 'medical science' and the Powers That Be (and sellers of "natural" products and healers that are more interested in ego than the truth), that it's wise to never accept anything from anyone regarding all chemical substances...and even some that Nature created. Dr. Kelley is on my top five "natural healers I respect highly list" (he saved my m-i-l's life), but that doesn't mean there's not a safer way to soften stones than orthophosphoric acid (or that the average person has any business putting a HALF CUP of Epsom Salts in a coffee enema), or that any successful healer's regimes & protocols don't have room for improvement. Gerson, Kelley, Schulze, Christopher, Clark never stopped researching, learning, testing and 'upgrading' their knowledge & protocols.
>>>When used intelligently,<<<
I guess that means different things to different folks. Ingesting something into my body that has been used and documented to destroy tooth enamel, weaken & degrade bones and dissolve a nail doesn't have an 'intelligent use' in the human body to this ole gal...but I strongly believe in TRULY natural 'natural health & healing'...and will never knowingly ingest any type of chemical or isolated extract unless I need it to accomplish a true cure and there's absolutely no other truly natural option at my disposal.
>>>drinking CocaCola/Pepsi at much higher levels than recommended dosage of phosphood/ortho phos (they are after all phosphoric acid and sugar and will too dissolve a nail). The Coke liver flush uses this knowledge to dissolve gallstones as well.<<<
Which brings up a good 'point for pondering'. Just how much orthophosphoric acid is concentrated in a small bottle of Orthophos that is ingested in a weeks time? Enough for a six pack of Coke/Pepsi? A twelve pack? A case? More? Less? I've NEVER found that data ANYWHERE (and I've searched HARD). Kelley had folks add a full bottle in a gallon of cider/juice, Doc Sutter adds 90 drops to a quart of cider 3 times (270 drops). How much is that in relationship to the amount needed to degrade/damage bones? I sure hope 'those in the know' will share...any clues at all would be helpful. How much orthosphosphoric acid is there in Coke/Pepsi/soda compared to what one would ingest for say, 20 liver flushes. It could be the ratios/levels would be far less/safer than one would imagine, but it could be that '20 flushes worth' of orthosphos has potential to do some serious long-term damage. (And of course, just like the harm that's incurred by using 'rock calcium supplements' that have an immediate alkalizing/symptom relieving effect, but the body can't assimilate them and then has to place the 'rock dust' in bone spurs, kidney stones, stiffened joints/ligaments and thickened blood), and that kind of 'harm' might not show up for years/decades.
I've been typing this for almost an hour and just flipped over to see if anyone's posted anymore - this is lookin' to be a GREAT thread!. And I hope you all know, I am a 'hard core' believer in liver flushing - and no matter how one flushes, it's important to flush 'till clean (and then flush again at least 4 times yearly for maintenance). Of course, we all have our personal preferences...yet I think it's REALLY important that we make our choices based on all the sound knowledge we can get our hands (and brains) on...I doubt there's any of us that hasn't been hoodwinked by somebody offering information about natural healing, and the more we can do to prevent that, the healthier we'll be (and the faster we'll get & stay there!).
As with everything, it's all about balance. The vast majority of population actually have higher levels of phosphorous in relation to calcium, so it is unlikely that people have a deficiency in this. This is due to the high phosphorous intake as the SAD diet (sodas and grains & meat high in phosphorous). Phosphorous allows calcium to remain ionized and enter cells. This is important, but when phosphorous is in excess in relation to calcium than, calcium begins to leach out of bones (osteoporosis).
When phosphorous is deficient, calcium absorption is compromised (needs an acidic medium to be ionized and absorbed into cells with phosphorous).
Optimum ratio Ca/P is 2.5 (hair analysis). If Phosphorous is higher than normal, a person tends to spend longer time in the sympathetic mode. This can cause anxiety with underlying fatigue, mood swings etc. Horses bred in Kentucky make very good races horses because of the high levels of phosphorous in the soil (makes them fidgity). Soil with high levels of calcium make them more docile.
So patients with high level of calcium in relationship to phosphorous generally lack energy, depressed, lazy due to shift into parasympathetic mode. Phosphoric acid can be beneficial in this case.
Phosphorous is essential for energy production since the energy molecule that keeps us alive is ATP (Adenosine Triphosphate).
An 8oz can of coke contains 88.5mgs (389ppm see source) of phosphoric acid. Checking my phosphood bottle, a serving (10 drops) contains 40mgs of phosphoric acid, a little less than half a bottle of coke.
Given that majority of people (standard american diet) do get excessive levels of phosporous, supplementation is generally needed only for those who are severly alkaline, have phosphorous deficiency due to absorption issues/strict diet, or wish to do dissolve gallstones/liver flush. This is generally short term, so side effects (teeth leaching etc) may be tolerable to resolve a higher priority health issues.
This all in light that the average american consumes more phosphoric acid daily as soda than someone who wishes to temporarily use phosphoric acid supplementation for health purposes (without additional sugar content found in sodas).
We could go into the chemistry of the human body forever and there would be some differences in what is considered normal to be found. Then we have the disease states with the deficiencies and the imbalances.
What I was saying here is that I believe the amount of phosphoric acid that one uses in the flushes and considering the length of time it is taken is worth the risk if there are, indeed, any untoward effects it has. Doc has said this is a crisis situation, and I believe it is when the life is at stake from a liver that is in bad shape. I know it was in my case.
The body can right itself if it is cleaned out, properly fed, and has all the other things that promote a healthy body like exercise and fresh air (wherever that can be found!) Good distilled water on a regular basis.
I still do not believe there is enough of this substance in the drink to hurt anyone. The calcium absorption comes about when the colon is healthy. I would just add some more calcium in my food.
Looks like a "to each his/her own" method of doing the flush unless one can come up with a substitute for the phosphoric acid.
I heard lobelia mentioned as opening up the bile duct, Uny. Any thoughts on that from your experience? It doesn't seem like it would be the best in this instance because of its emetic properties.
Yes indeedy, it IS a "to each his own" thing...and all of our bodies are different.
For me, it's about a 'comparison shopping' kind of thing most times - find out what I need to do and then find the substance/product/food that will do it...with the LEAST potential for harm.
Malic Acid (from natural foods) vs othosphosphoric acid & all it's known side-effects for softening stones prior to liver flushing...to me, that's not even a choice to consider.
As far as orthosphosphoric acid providing a relaxation and opening of the bile ducts? Until someone shows me some very valid documented evidence of that, I find it to be a typical-sad "rumour so often repeated everybody believes it to be a truth". Dr. Kelley is the one that started using it in his flushes (in the latter half of the century) to soften stones & debris. And he got the basis of his 'recipe' from the prestigious Lahey Clinic in Boston that used liver flushing for liver/gallbladder cleansing in the 1920's-1930's. If othosphosphoric acid relaxed/opened the biliary network, there'd be absolutely no need for the Epsom Salts in his (and other) protocols.
Epsom Salts is a substantially known/accepted 'relaxer' of all ductwork in the body (including tense/strained muscles & ligaments). Magnesium Sulphate IV's are used to dilate/relax arteries in cases of extreme high blood pressure (especially with pre-eclampsia in pregnancies) in ER's and hospital settings. ES also has another VERY important function in a liver flush, and that it is causes the gallbladder to squeeze & contract, hence emptying it contents easier through the magnesium induced relaxation of the gallbladder sphincter...
>>It contracts the gallbladder, relaxes the sphincter of Oddi, and increases gastric, intestinal and pancreatic secretion and, very importantly, production of cholecystokinin.<< http://curezone.com/blogs/fm.asp?i=985355
(that's a "HUGE" link for researched truths & understanding the 'whys & wherefores' of using ES in a liver flush).
My husbands cousin who was recommended to have her gallbladder removed because of 'sludge', took one tablespoon of ES to get some relief until she could get everything together to start flushing the next day. Within 2 hours, she'd released and seen somewhere between 50-100 gallstones in the toilet...no oil, no orthophos, no citrus...just the ES.
Personally, I hate the stuff. I'm effected by the dehydration and it throws my electrolyte balance whacky. Since I discovered Telman's lil' 'electrolyte cocktail' (a bit of water/juice, pinch of natural salt, pinch of baking soda, pinch of potassium chloride/salt substitute...and I throw in about 1/2 a tablespoon of blackstrap molasses), I've had great relief from the 'woozy, weak, dizziness' I normally experience with the ES.
Then there's Dr. Schulze, who never used Orthophos OR epsom salts...straight olive oil & lemon juice (up to a cup of each, mixed together, and ingested in 1/4 cup increments every 15 - 30 minutes before bed). His technique for anything that might get stuck was a bit more oil/citrus and heavy work to the gallbladder reflex point on the bottom of the feet. He also used herbal adjuncts to increase the flow of bile, ginger & garlic to increase the flow of bile (ginger for nausea), hot/cold contrast therapy and castor oil packs.
As many know, I believe in truly natural 'natural healing' whenever possible because bodies are natural and I feel they responds to that best and most effectively (give that the 'natural products' are wimpy, woosy, non-organic bs). So it's time I put my body where my mouth is, and do my next flush with just the olive oil/citrus (which I plan to do in a couple of weeks). I'll prep that with several days worth of overnite castor oil packs and see what happens. But that won't prove or validate anything. Each flush is an "individual process" unto itself, and they're almost always completely different and dependent upon a MYRIAD of factors.
>>>Doc has said this is a crisis situation, and I believe it is when the life is at stake from a liver that is in bad shape. I know it was in my case.<<<
When the liver is congested it is a crisis, no doubt about that...and our health & life IS at stake. But that doesn't mean we can't 'take inventory' and 'do comparison shopping' and find all the various truths & risks while we're starting/continuing to cleanse. Because to me, that ends up with the perfect scenario...that we can become even safer and more effective with our cleansing & healing AND have valid 'safe as possible' information to pass along to others.
Between Dr. Christopher and Dr. Schulze, thousand of people were healed and 'liver cleansed' without using OrthoPhos and Epsom Salts (and if one takes note of Edgar Cayce, his readings cured thousands of liver congestion with just olive oil and castor oil packs)
>>>The body can right itself if it is cleaned out, properly fed, and has all the other things that promote a healthy body like exercise and fresh air (wherever that can be found!) Good distilled water on a regular basis.<<<
Our bones are continually being broken down all the time--called osteoclastic activity. They are also constantly being built up--osteoblstic activity. The purpose of a clean colon is so we can absorb the nutrients that go to help the bones rebuild themselves. All except for the people who have taken the anti-osteoporosis drugs that eventually stop the osteoblastic activity after about 5 years and turn the bone matix into somthing that looks like crystals.
I think this is the purpose of why Doc says to exercise. We are eating good food, have a clean colon, and then we exercise, because weight bearing helps to increase the density of the bone. Doc mentions wearing moccasins on his CD because this little jolt with walking helps the bones. Rather than wearing shoes with soles that are soft rubber.
Even "they" in the medical profession realize that lying in bed makes for breakdown of the bone because of inactivity.
So, if the ultraphos DID take a few of the bone cells away, they would be replaced by the process above. This is how I see it.
Great posts by Unyquity and digitalman. Not much I can add to that. The phosphoric acid in the ratios and concentration used in Ultra phos for the liver flush are minimal and have a very specific action. But it's not something one should keep in their diet on a daily basis.
A liver flush can be considered a crisis situation. Without getting your liver decongested it will kill you. So you have to tolerate the ulptraphos for three days. Well, that's not so bad. The results of the liver flush are life saving, which is a pretty good trade-off.
When someone gets to the point mentally where they realize they better get their liver decongested they usually have their diet on the right track by then. So a bit of ultraphos will be neutralized within a day after the flush.
And none of this is set in stone. If you can figure out a way to get the job done please inform the rest of us. The important thing is to get the liver back on line and keep it on line. However you can naturally accomplish that is what we're interested in.
I'm confused with all the different cleanses and the way they all say you 'must' take this and lift your right leg or lay on your back and think about your liver, or on your face and go to sleep, or do this or that. That's why I can't commit to doing anything.
Why don't any of the other cleanses mention ultra-phos? Some say Malic acid instead of apple juice, not cider, and on and on.
I'm wondering... if ordinary coke and oil can get stones out, are people at Burger Joints cleaning their livers with their greasy food and cokes???
I'm waiting for the liver cleanse recipe that says, "go to Burger King and order 2 Whoppers, a super size fries and a large Coke and drink it with some pure vodka and go out and dance!
Why can't there be a way to incorporate this into our daily diets?