If the main purpose of the lemon juice is to stop us bringing the oil back up could I use kombucha vinegar instead.. mixes well with olive oil... my first flush I tried this and actually liked the taste... and got my largest stone to date (3.2cm).
However a subsequent flush with the vinegar was disgusting (I was using a different olive oil). Each flush (I've done 6) seems to get worse. I used lemons on the other 4. I don't know if it's my body rejecting the mixture (vinegar or lemons) or if I did it too often (every 3- 5 days). I got stones first 4 times and nothing last 2. Am waiting a couple weeks now before another. I don't feel any better..still feel like there's 'something there' in my right side. I know my lymph is backed up and I have pains all over at different times... maybe it just takes time to clear the stagnation. I think I'm wittering on here and digressing.
So main question is... what about the vinegar?
Thanks for any help.
Sorry if this is the wrong place.. I'm so confused about where I am ..are so many forums and pages to this one, and FAQ's etc... one can spend an age trying to locate oneself or find the same message again!
It gets confusing to figure out where you are. When I started I had the same trouble, I kept forgetting where I put messages. My suggestion to you is, if you want to keep track of your messages, to sign up under your profile for "Reply notification" and "thread notification" in this way curezone will send you a message that someone answered your question. You can even read it and answer it from your mailbox, no need to go to curezone.
I could not live without, especially when someone answers late and your question is not on the main page anymore and you forget to look back.
Actually when I see that someone is not signed up I don't answer the message late, I am afraid they will miss it anyhow.
Coming back to your question. The best thing to use is grapefruit juice, it will mix with the OO, while lemon does not. Put it in a jar, shake hard and it becomes kind of watery. Try different OO, Spanish is lighter and now I found a Greek one that is even better.
You are doing it too often, change to every 2-3 weeks. The stones in the back otherwise don't have time to come forward.
Yes, Hanna is right. Allow at least 2 weeks between flushes.
Vinager is heavy on the liver. I would not use it at all!!
Grapefruit mixes and tastes better than lemon. Give it a try.
Reemember that some flushes work better than others. Donīt be disappointed. Keep flushing and youīll be all right sooner or later. Keep in mind that it has taken years for you to congest your liver and gb. Thus, it will take some time to cleanse it now. Step by step youīll get there.
Are you taking any bile mover and stone breaker? It also helps a lot.
I used Artichoke Tincture or Chinese Bitters(both help move the stagnant bile) and GCG or Chanca Piedra (stone breakers).
Thanks for your advice both.
Actually I don't find a problem with the oil and lemon juice mixing... if the quantities are right... I use 200ml oil 100 ml lemon juice. It was just I have the Kombucha always to hand and it is healthy and contains glucoronic acid to aid liver detox anyway. I haven't been using any Epsom Salts .. only enemas, but may try the former.
Re the frequency... so are you saying that with the first 4 flushes..all of what I got out (a lot) was at the 'front' of the liver? ( I had an ultrasound about 4 years ago when I was admitted in severe pain in liver area.. nothing showed up in gallbladder. Incidentally that pain lasted non stop for 4 months.. so I'm guessing I had a big stone stuck somewhere with accompanying inflammation... otherwise the pain would have been intermittent? And interestingly as I could see I was not digesting plant material I decided to take all fruit veg and grain out of my diet.. the pain subsided within 24-48 hours.. so again I'm guessing I wasn't digesting the complex carbs.)
Back to frequency.. so even if there's discomfort or pain in liver area you'd say wait 2 weeks? I'm not sure I could.. my guts would tell me to do another flush sooner (pun intended!)
If you have pain you could first try a glass of water with 1-3 tsp Epsom Salts . The pain often goes away, it is not a cure, but it gives relief. If you have trouble you can do the flush sooner. The ES relaxes the ducts so it easier for stones to come out.
I don't know if you have heard about Ayurvedic medicine, but they work with 3 bodytypes and after you know your bodytype you can tell why certain foods don't work well for your body. Google it. Also Ask Andreas Moritz follows that protocol.
He has also a website http://www.ener-chi.com Look under healthinfo, articles and interviews. Under intestinal etc. you will read that you need the bile for digesting. I have to assume that you don't have a calcified stone (it would have shown on your ultrasound). You might be just filled up with cholesterol stones and that will clog up the bile flow.
All the info is in Andreas book "Timely secrets etc", you will be amazed about all the info is in there. It gives also variations if you are e.g. allergic to olive oil. Plus directions for all cleanses and ES bowel cleanse.
Your diet is not average for curezone, what is there left to eat? Here in general they suggest not to eat dairy, meat,processed food, soda's (drinks) etc.
BTW I use the same amount of OO/GFJ, 4 oz. there is a conversion table if you want to check it in ml on the right lower side of the home page. Lemon turns alkaline in the body and not acidic.
Thanks again Hanna
Yes I was aware of the enerchi website. Actually think his article on the liver is great (not too techy but not so patronising either.. a difficult balance to achieve) to show folk who don't appreciate just how important the liver is.
Re diet.. well I've been experimenting for 4 years.. trying to reintroduce different veg, fruit, grains. After a while I realised if fruit or veg are not ripe... and most fruit and veg in the UK is not... picked too soon and then artificially ripened... lord knows what's left behind of the antinutrients/plants natural defense mechanisms, or indeed how little actual nutrients are available to us who eat them. Growing one's own is only solution... my courgettes tasted sweet..never tasted a sweet one before..always rather bitter.
Real fruit is to die for.. only ever had that in the tropics... and some English fruit that's in season, like plums. With a little research came to realise exactly the same applies to grains.. ie all grains are harvested too soon ... for economic reasons. But there are ways of ripening them after cutting.. ie of bringing them to the point of germination at which time all sorts of things happen to turn it into fit for consumption grain products. (This was how grains used to be before the war.. left in the fields after cutting.. in bundles, to absorb the rain and reach germination point). There's a company in the US who actually do this with all their grains and then produce various flours from the germinated grain. Unfortunately they haven't come to the UK yet, but plan to
Sorry..was getting a bit carried away! Suffice to say I realised I was affected by starch.
I had been a 90% vegetarian (at the risk of offending the 100%-ers). Never been big on processed food..and now doesn't even come into the equation.
Do use raw milk and make kefir from it. Plenty of wholesome eggs and unpasteurised cheese.. and now good quality meats both domestic and wild. Avocados and salad stuffs which are ripe. Fruit when it's ripe. And as above.
Complex carbs are only meant to be used seasonally too.. in my humble opinion.. and according to some folk's received wisdom, to be stored by the body in the event of starvation or hard times.
But... we can't go down the diet route cos there'd be a ton of worms let out the can then! And there's plenty other forums and websites that deal with all that.
That's great that you know all that. It is sometimes difficult to know when people come on the forums what they have done before.
I am a pitta and unripe fruit is really bad for me too.
Actually I really felt good this morning when I got up, had warm water with lemon. Took my grandson to daycamp, came home, had an apple and suddenly felt tired. It is on my to eat list, but like you said it might not have been ripe enough.
Some of my apples were rotting from the inside and the man in the store said they were from last year and had been in storage. And here I am paying extra money for organic fruit.
I know what you mean Hanna. I often find there is a choice between organic fruit which is really watery or unripe, eg avocados in former case and cucumber in latter OR non organic but ripe. I'm learning that, despite the chemical cocktail that non organic can offer the body, that its preferable to the other... a question of nutients plus poisons as opposed to no poisons but no nutrients AND AS IMPORTANTLY, antinutrients..which act like poisons anyway.
A well balanced body (I don't think I've met one yet ;) ) I'm sure would be up to detoxing the chemicals... up to a point and for a certain period of time, eg half a lifetime... GIVEN appropriate support in the form of adequate nutrition, including the most important nutrient, cellular oxygen.
I sometimes think I'd like to challenge.. not just the supermarkets to take out all non food items masquerading as food, but also the so called farmer's markets, greengrocers and such to 'give me my money back because you sold me fruit/veg which was not ripe and had no way of ripening off the plant and was therefore of no nutritional benefit to me whatsoever and in fact even did me some harm!'
Can you imagine the looks?! But what a case if it was won... any good lawyers out there?! So many are under the assumption that eating loads of fruit and veg is good for them.
Meat also has its own similar problems of course... eg I don't consider lamb to be ripe enough...always go for mutton. But at least if the meat is not aged enough we can tenderise it or cook it for long slow periods with plenty of water.. thereby making it digestible. We can avoid the hormones and antibiotics by going for organic but that does not mean we get purely grass fed as nature intended. However life's a compromise!
Sorry for anyone reading this and thinking what's this got to do with the liver. But actually it has... I wonder if the liver can eventually get confused by what is nutrient to be stored and what is toxin to be eliminated, or get overwhelmed and throw out the baby with the bathwater. Hmmm.
I read your post about using Kombucha T: (I culture and use it myself).
It's an excellent detoxifier,and I use it before meals,when I thinkI need it.
Also, it's wondefull after a LF: very refreshing, esp when dehydrated from the flush.
As someone mentioned, give yourself time between flushes.
You could try doing a "double flush": adding an extra 1/2 of dose of OO/GJ beween the 3rd and 4th Epsom Salt dose. That made a big difference for me.
I use Magnesium Malate prior to the flush (as I found myself unable to drink a lot of Apple Juice)it softens the stones nicely.
I hope you're using Epsom Salts ,I had very little results without ES.
If you're having a lot of discomfort from the GB pain, try applying a Casto Oil pack on it, it did wonders for me.
Keep on flushing: it gets better.
Yes I drink the Kombucha daily, and use the vinegar on all sorts.
I've just tried a flush with the Epsom Salts ... the es blew my intestines up so much I could hardly breathe and I couldn't get the 4th dose down. I had tiny amount of chaff this morning..had to use an enema, and the normal matter was very foul smelling.. not usual for me.. I don't know if this is down to the es or toxins.
I think the es doesn't do it for me. The other flushes got out loads without es. So I think I'll wait a few weeks now and do another one with just oil and lj.
One thing I do realise now is that a liver clogged up with stones and toxins is going to inhibit absorption or processing of anything you take.. (kind of obvious!)maybe different for different folk... so even drinking the kombucha for the last 3 years may have been going to waste. Maybe processing es even is problematic because of this. It's strange that they say processing of fats is faulty with stones.. yet I've never had a problem processing fats... just plant material.. maybe effect on pancreas.
I look forward to trying such things with a clean liver and seeing if there's a difference. Do people leave this forum once they achieve a clean liver, I wonder... do we ever achieve it... are stones nature's adaptation to a toxic laden environment? Must check out the history of this cleanse.
All the best.
My kitchen is a virtual forest of Kombuchas... :) (I have 7 Sun T jars with the brew in it...)
How many flushes have you done? It really is a matter of trial and error and you have to figure out what works for you.
I wonder about that vegetable matter, I'm fine with that, but the fats do cause problems.
I can't imagine not using ES with flushing, used to make me bit ill, until I started drinkin water all the way up until 1 hr prior to the Flush as I was mostly dehydrated.
I've talked to people on this Forum who have finally cleared out their stones and are not producing new ones.
I've been at it for nearly 2 yrs, but since it took a wjile to gunk up the liver, I'm being patient, knowing it takes time.
I've done 23 LFs to date, but it has gotten MUCH better and many of the symptoms either have cleared up or disappeared.
Wish you health,
Yes lunari... I've been trying and erroring for 4 years!
But liver flushing is new to me.. I've done 7 so far... but 3 to 5 days apart. Yesterday after the es I actually passed quite a lot of small stones over the course of the whole day.
I might try normal non vinegar kombucha mixed with the olive oil when I do another in a couple weeks.
I am drinking what's called activated water... I have a machine which excites oxygen to the singlet form and then passes the photon energy resulting, into water.. it does help the intestines generally and maybe that can replace the es.. don't know yet... must keep experimenting... strokes for folks.
Incidentally, I saw an acupuncturist some years ago..when my 'liver chi was on the floor'. I'm also 'wood' or the liver meridian in that system. The acupuncture managed to shift my stagnant chi around but obviously didn't rid me of the stones.
Has anyone tried castor oil?
The more I look into everything the more convinced I become of how we have to work at simple levels re health... 'check what we put in and ensure we are clear to evacuate' The body knows what it's doing. I even came across an idea the other day that cancerous tumours, which contain some healthy cells too, continue to grow in an attempt to have the healthy cells outnumber the unhealthy ones... makes sense to me!
Yes, the body does know what it's doing... too bad we often don't... :)
I agree in that if we provide all the nutrient the body needs it does have the ability to restore the perfect health. We are unfortunately swamped with different sources of toxins these days, in our food, water, environment: we also ingest pharmaceuticals, which shut down the liver, we drink alcohol, use cosmetics which have toxins in them and so on.
No wonder our poor livers give up trying to process all this junk that goes thru our systems.
Once the health fails, some of us begin the search for a natural way of healing. That often is the beginning of true healing.
Unfortunately many end up at the mercy of the medical professionals.
I was sick a few years ago, and were misdiagnosed.
Thank God, otherwise, if I had listened to the MD, who knows what state I would have ended up by now.
The activated water sounds great...
If you choose not to use ES, are you going to try to use another kind of Magnesium? You should try to add something to relax the biliary passages.
I foungd that citrus works the best in flushing, esp lemon. Never tried vinegar, but let me know if it works.
I have heard of people using walnut oil, and it worked.
I haven't tried castor oil, but heard it does not work (plus it's a littlle thick , may be hard to swallow).
Flushing every 3-5 days may be too close together, you want to have time to prep and give the new batch of stones time to move down towards the common bile duct.
The most often I've done it was 7 days apart, but only out of desperation, seeking relief.
After you do several flushes, the bigger stones will come out. There will be enough pressure to push the bigger ones out once you clear the GB and the common bile duct. Many people get the biggies out aroung the 10th flush. My biggest ones came out during my 13th Flush (walnut size).
Also, have you tried doubling up on the OO/GJ mix during the flush? I get more out.
Yes, it's interesting how everybody is different and reacts differently... on one level. I do believe however that there is a basic level that we can work at which is fundamental to all humans, maybe even all mammals?! (top of the fractal)
I got my biggest stones out with the first and third flushes, (green then cream respectively) which were with K vinegar and oo but no Epsom Salts , first and lemon j and oo but no es on the third. The most in number, and smaller came on the 2nd and 4th (green then cream). The fewest with each bowel movement came with the es.
I figure it's down to just what's waiting in line in the liver and also what else is going on in the liver at the time, and requires merely sufficient oo to surge the bile out. I also do my flushes.. drink the mixture, around lunch time and use an enema the following morning.. it never feels right to do it in the evening, for me. I also eat fat for breakfast... therefore a six hour fast prior to flushing... and quite often eat a normal eve meal (for me) on that day too, including fat. (but no lunch)
Having done one flush now with Epsom Salts ..when I was in bed off and on for half the day, so tired, I think I too would wait 2 or 3 weeks were I to always use the es... that was my gut feeling when doing it.. ie not too often. However without es I feel fine about doing it every 3 to 5 days. Maybe it's down to frequent little nudges as opposed to one big nudge less often. If you imagine the old hose pipe scenario again.. forcing a whole load of water in one end may or may not affect the blockage.. but the vibration alone might shake things free. Pouring less water in but regularly may have a more profound effect however.
Having said that, someone might have a large stone nearer the duct and have to get that out prior to anything else.. which may account for some folk not getting anything on first few flushes ( or if their stones are smaller but further back).
Don't know if it's this mechanical... maybe Spirit can help.
I do think that we can't lay down hard and fast rules and that we have to listen to our instincts.. not so much to knowledge or received wisdom or whatever.
I agree with you about not listening so much to medics... partly.
In this country it's slightly different as we have a national health service whereby nobody pays directly.. so the system gets used and abused by patients. Doctors here are under pressure.. time and resources constraints... but most of all a medical education that dictates a particular view... we can't blame them for that.. we are all conditioned by our education and it takes a brave soul to step outside and swim against the current.
I believe fundamentally in responsibility for our own wellbeing being down to the individual... but to really listen to your own body we need time out of a hectic crazy world on a regular basis.. and to change our priorities somewhat... there shouldn't be a dichotomy or antagonism between idealism and practicality.